Home » Stars! 2.6/7 » New Game Announcements » Primitive ONE
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| Re: Primitive ONE |
Wed, 19 September 2007 15:22   |
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| Ptolemy wrote on Tue, 18 September 2007 14:48 |
All players need to remember that this is PRIMITIVE Stars!. Effectively you are all at war from turn one with everyone. I have relaxed that philosophy a little by allowing one race to be set to neutral thus allowing a restricted alliance condition. Nobody can gate to a neutral players planets and nobody can pass through a neutral players minefields freely.
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It is possible, however, to transfer ships to neutral players and such transfers aren't explicitly prohibited in the rules. In my opinion transfering ships would take away from the primitiveness of the game.
Shouldn't that be prohibited?
The Universe is usually not fair.
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| Re: Primitive ONE |
Thu, 20 September 2007 23:18 |
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| Soobie |
 | Officer Cadet 3rd Year |
Messages: 270
Registered: May 2007
Location: Australia | |
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| DenHam wrote on Thu, 20 September 2007 04:52 |
It is possible, however, to transfer ships to neutral players and such transfers aren't explicitly prohibited in the rules. In my opinion transfering ships would take away from the primitiveness of the game.
Shouldn't that be prohibited?
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It seems to me that ship transfers would carry considerable risk of tech trading and so it appears that it is already banned.
Hopefully Ptolemy will clarify both this and joseph's query on the multi-generation of early turns. 
[Updated on: Thu, 20 September 2007 23:18] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Primitive ONE |
Fri, 28 September 2007 10:40 |
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| Quote: |
It is possible, however, to transfer ships to neutral players and such transfers aren't explicitly prohibited in the rules. In my opinion transfering ships would take away from the primitiveness of the game.
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Supplying ships to another player is banned. It would be deemed as a possible attempt to trade technology - which is already banned.
I could do some slight jump start like Glacier did, however, since I did not publish that I would do so, and since the game will be generating 5 days a week period, it will simply mean that the early turns can be done very quickly.
Since there is 12 players in the game, there are a couple of PRT duplications, however, there is not 3 of any PRT and I will ensure that the duplicated PRT's start effectively on opposite ends of the galaxy from each other. Nobody needs to worry about 2 of the same PRT ganging up on a neighbor.
I WILL be generating the game without fail no later than tomorrow evening. I will have started the generations tonight and, unless I get very lucky early on, I am going to have to generate numerous universes until I get one that seems to be nice and fair. There are 12 players and this will be a medium/normal universe - Glacier is a medium/sparse. There is only one one more player than Glacier has and Glacier could have managed one more easily without changing the dynamics.
The main rules in the original post have been modified to include these clarifications.
Ptolemy
[Updated on: Fri, 28 September 2007 10:57]
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| Re: Primitive ONE |
Fri, 28 September 2007 15:02 |
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A simple jump start is something I would have advised - for the first 20 years (10 turns). However, it is advisable to let everyone scout and see their messages every year. With a jump start, a PP player has a scanning advantage. I did not specify an acellerated start, so everyone can submit each year as they do it. An accelerated start won't make much difference over the long run - it will only eliminate a few days of nice and easy simple turns to process. The game generation WILL stay as I have defined it - no exceptions other than recognized religious holidays for those that need them. Notify me in advance please.
IF all turns are in, Autohost will generate the next turn. It will happen that sometimes in the first 20 years, AH will generate with somebody missing one turn - this will not be a problem for a player since issueing orders for 2 turns in advance may take one extra minute from a 3 minute turn.
You all can get your turns in fast and AH will generate the new turn when all turns are in. In the early years it is very easy to get two turns in during the same 24 hour period.
I will monitor the game anyway and, when I see the schedule getting stupid, I will reset Autohost. Later on, I will let things progress as they will.
One thign IS FOR CERTAIN, I WILL BE CHECKING TURNS TO VERIFY RULE COMPLIANCE. If any player sees a possible infraction of the rules, I should be notified immediatly so I can verify the turns. ANY player found violation the rules of the game will be subject to any number of penalties that I specify as the host of the game for a rule infraction. These penalties can include:
Ban from uploadeing a turn, host scraps invalid fleets.
Ban for 5 turns - ALL ships orders cancelled.
A blatant intentional violation of the rules will get you set to DEAD - I will personally issue the orders for your fleets and planets to eliminate you from the galaxy - your Home Planet will be up for grabs - be aware, I WILL be checking all turns, if I see you trying to quit and give yoru HW to a neighbor, I will place the planet off-limits to ALL races.
HELLO PEOPLE - don't break the rules.
I WILL be checking ALL turns for at least the first 50 turns to make sure everyone stays within the rules.
A new message to ALL players is forthcoming as I am now working on generateing this game. As soon as the game is set up on Autohost, I will close this thread in the forum - It will be the turn of Primitive 2 to take up some of my time:)
Regards,
Ptolemy
[Updated on: Fri, 28 September 2007 15:14]
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| Re: Primitive ONE |
Fri, 28 September 2007 15:34 |
|
 yartrebo |
 | Petty Officer 3rd Class |
Messages: 43
Registered: July 2006
Location: North America | |
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| Quote: |
Good luck on pop dropping a race that will be growing 2% faster than you, at worst! And, if you design your normal race right, you will probably have 7% growth...
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Going from 8% to 7% PGR does give back plenty of RW points, but when you're dealing with such low growth levels, every point is critical. For an 8%, 1.1M max pop race, it will take 19 turns to reach 25% pop on the HW. For a 7% 1.1M max pop race, it will take 23 turns (lower growth and 5,000 less starting colonists).
The turn advantage will just compound from there. Once the 8% race starts colonizing soon after turn 19, (s)he will be able to produce 14% more colonists/turn from the HW and breeders will get to hold population faster, so the 8% race is now even more than 4 turns ahead.
Even with 8% PGR, you have enough RW points to invest in other areas, enough so that you get to the point of diminishing marginal returns. Const and weapons are forced to expensive, many PRTs are required to take generalized research, and energy research past level 10 is almost worthless, so taking all 6 fields expensive becomes very tempting.
IFE is essentially worthless because of no fuel miser, so no place to park extra RW points there. TT and factory settings are cheap because of low growth rate. Essentially going from 8% to 7% will only buy you a few extra factories operated (not enough to offset the lower pop) or an extra immunity (might pay back later, but not in my opinion).
In this game, population will be worth its weight in gold. I would do nothing that could compromise its growth.
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| Re: Primitive ONE |
Sat, 29 September 2007 03:16 |
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| Soobie |
| Officer Cadet 3rd Year |
Messages: 270
Registered: May 2007
Location: Australia | |
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Thanks to Ptolemy for clarifying those points.
| yartrebo wrote on Sat, 29 September 2007 05:04 |
Going from 8% to 7% PGR does give back plenty of RW points, but when you're dealing with such low growth levels, every point is critical. For an 8%, 1.1M max pop race, it will take 19 turns to reach 25% pop on the HW. For a 7% 1.1M max pop race, it will take 23 turns (lower growth and 5,000 less starting colonists).
...
In this game, population will be worth its weight in gold. I would do nothing that could compromise its growth.
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I agree with you for different reasons, but swings and roundabouts. Forgetting AR and assuming a realistic maintainable CAGR around 0.7% below the PGR for 2i and 1.1% below PGR for 1i, to me the picture looks like:
2i 7%:
7% PGR (say 6.3% CAGR), 2 imm Uber HP (1/1000 pop eff, 15/x/25 facs), 2 cheap techs and max res of around 7.1K at 2450.
A 2i 8% might make a choice between:
* Full HP (1/2500) - all exp techs and max res of about 8.5K @ 2450
* HG~HP (1/1000 15/x/16~>13/x/21) - all exp techs and max res of about 7.8K @ 2450
* HG (1/1000 12/x/16~21) - 2.0~3.5 cheap techs with max res of around 7.2K
Finally, there is the 8% 1i HP or Uber HP (1/1000 15/x/25 fac). (oh, 1i HG as well). If you take an imm/ultra-wide/narrow hab you could be looking at:
* 8% 1i, Uber HP ~8.2K res at 2450, no cheap tech; or
* 8% 1i, HP, 7.2K and 3.0 cheap tech
* 8% 1i, HG, 6.5K res and 3.0 cheap tech.
(I'd be pretty damn impressed if anyone actually achieves those res figures at 2450 without significant backfilling and hence killing their CAGR early/in the 40s, btw - I'd also be impressed if anyone actually achieves those CAGRs even with less res - I'm thinking I'm being a bit optimistic there, particularly for the 1i variants as the game goes into the 70s+)
8% 1i & 2i Full HP don't look attractive because they're a pig to play well in non-expert hands (eg: a pig in MY non-expert hands ) and medium/normal seems a bit cramped for them even with low growth (but could be a good environment to learn!)
The 8% 2i HG~HP and 1i UberHP look pretty ugly if you like getting your toys, but very nice if you like building things.
For toy lovers the 8% HG and 7% Uber HP look pretty nice.
The 7% Uber HP is going to have stronger mine settings (but possibly less germ) so it should also have better non-germ reliant ship building capability and perhaps has enough RW to get away with not taking OBRM to impprove the mineral position further.
[[I guess another option is that the rather non-rated hybrids (mixed pop eff, say 1/1400~1/1700) could play well in this environment, but I wouldn't bet my house on it.]]
On balance, while I'm thinking the 8% is a pretty bright move, if you can show some discipline (like avoiding backfilling for as long as possible) I think a well played 7% 2i is going to be pretty hard to beat.
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| Re: Primitive ONE |
Sun, 30 September 2007 16:08 |
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I'm sorry yartrebo but your race wasn't in time for this game - however, I have kept it and you are certainly welcome to join Primitive 2 which will be starting very soon now that I have Primitive 1 generated. The rules for Primitive 2 will be a little different so your race may need modifications - I haven't actually looked at it yet. The main difference in the Primitive 2 rules will be for HE races and IT's
Ptolemy
Though we often ask how and why, we must also do to get the answers to the questions.Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Primitive ONE |
Sun, 30 September 2007 18:54 |
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| Soobie |
| Officer Cadet 3rd Year |
Messages: 270
Registered: May 2007
Location: Australia | |
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| Ptolemy wrote on Mon, 01 October 2007 05:01 |
Hmmm - I hit 7.4k in 2450 with a 1 immune 7% HP and 8 planets in a medium/sparse universe playing in a testbed with 6 expert AI's
Ptolemy
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Good point!
I should point out I'm no guru and I was making the assumptions with a specific PRT which wasn't a races that starts with 2 planets (72K pop start? @ 7%?)
You managed to maintain a better CAGR than I worked with for 1-imm, naturally. 7% 1imm 1/1000 15/6~7/25 facs would be a *very* fast building and terraforming race, so I would think those 8 planets were all well developed particularly if you colonised the last one around, say, ~2440. An average pop of around, say, 200K per planet would give around that econ - CAGR about 6.35%~6.4%, so that is an absolute focus on early terra (of course).
Thank you for pointing out the option I left out (7% 1-imm) and a race type I wasn't thinking about (2 world start) - I stand corrected, as usual 
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| Re: Primitive ONE |
Sun, 30 September 2007 19:23 |
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Ptolemy, can you send an email when the AH page is ready? I've done my first turn, but naturally there's no place to send it yet. It would really suck to miss the first deadline.
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| Re: Primitive ONE |
Tue, 02 October 2007 11:24 |
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| mlaub |
 | Lieutenant |
Messages: 744
Registered: November 2003
Location: MN, USA | |
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| joseph wrote on Tue, 02 October 2007 10:01 |
Out of interest - in Glacier Exploding minefields were banned.
Are they banned in this one and (more importantly for me) are they banned in primitive 2 when it starts up?
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I am actually very surprised that no one, that I know of, took a SD in Glacier. SD was my second pick, as it is the cheapest PRT, and has one of the biggest advantages in the game, even without exploding minefields. Plus, you have a chance to scan an SS in your minefields.
I wonder if the people in Glacier didn't take it, because of the exploding rule, or if they thought mines alone weren't good enough.
Well, it is definitely second fiddle next to the HE, but SD is by far better than everything else with exploding minefields.
The first primitive game I ever played, I played SD. The rules allowed exploding minefields and fuel xports. A buddy of mine, who is a better player than me, most of the time, took WM. He started attacking me very early, when I still had weap0. He was only able to bomb one of my planets, once. We were at war nearly the entire game (along with the other 5 players attacking me), and I eventually won. No one could get through the shell I was putting up. Granted the game ended early, as I met all the victory conditions, but still *way* too powerful for frigates/destroyers/cruisers. So, in a nutshell, exploding minefields are the bang.
-Matt
Global Warming - A climatic change eagerly awaited by most Minnesotans.
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| Re: Primitive ONE |
Wed, 03 October 2007 10:28 |
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Exploding minefields weren't banned in Primitive 1. I haven't made the rules for Primitive 2 yet since Primitve 1 just started. However, the mini-minelayer is banned in Primitive 1. This seriously cuts down the SD advantage since the other 'standard' hulls like scouts and frigates won't lay double mines. I am likely to follow this same philosophy for Primitive 2 which I will be working on the rules for this week-end.
Ptolemy
Though we often ask how and why, we must also do to get the answers to the questions.Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Primitive ONE |
Wed, 03 October 2007 19:45 |
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| mlaub |
| Lieutenant |
Messages: 744
Registered: November 2003
Location: MN, USA | |
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| Ptolemy wrote on Wed, 03 October 2007 09:28 |
Exploding minefields weren't banned in Primitive 1. I haven't made the rules for Primitive 2 yet since Primitve 1 just started. However, the mini-minelayer is banned in Primitive 1. This seriously cuts down the SD advantage since the other 'standard' hulls like scouts and frigates won't lay double mines.
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Agreed, but this is not a normal game. While you are reducing the power, the question is, is it enough of a reduction. I'd say no.
The reason being that in a low growth game like this, you can easily out pace expensive weapons with cheap biotech, at least for the first 60 years, when it will matter. What this means is that you will have minelayer 80/130's out there quickly. A single frigate will be laying lots of mines by itself. True, it will blow itself up if it doesn't get out when the field detonates, but I see that as a minor annoyance, as they can move and detonate the same turn (movement comes before detonation).
As an example, In the game I spoke of earlier, I was easily able to overwhelm the total beam power of one of the player HW SB's and all his ships in orbit, early on in the game. I detonated and killed all his ships in orbit. I'd say that was a bit unbalanced.  He recovered only with the help of my buddy playing the WM. You could do the same with about 15-20 scout minelayers.
*Note, I obviously disagree here, because I have different rules in Glacier. This doesn't make me right, I just have a different view on the SD capabilities.
-Matt
Global Warming - A climatic change eagerly awaited by most Minnesotans.
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| Re: Primitive ONE |
Wed, 03 October 2007 22:06 |
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Well, the other solution is to force SD to take expensive Bio.
Ptolemy
Though we often ask how and why, we must also do to get the answers to the questions.Report message to a moderator
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Re: Primitive ONE
YOU'RE so dead now. Just wait til I get on a plane and fly over there and smack you. 