Home » Stars! 2.6/7 » New Game Announcements » Glacier - A Primitive/Slow Growth game
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| Re: Glacier - A Primitive/Slow Growth game |
Tue, 10 July 2007 09:09   |
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So, it seems the game is full which is a pity since I just decided to join up if possible.
Shoulda signed up first, tested later!
Anyway, you may as well sign me up as 1st reserve
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| Re: Glacier - A Primitive/Slow Growth game |
Tue, 10 July 2007 13:29 |
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I haven't reached Ptolemy's posted 2450 figures either. Am I concerned? No, not really.
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Hrrrmmmph.... Not worried! Hah  perhaps you should be! 
I made my figures with 7% growth races, both with and without OBRM - made slightly higher with OBRM than wihtout. In all cases, I am building 'real game' situtation fleets - minelayers, armed ships and various support ships. I have run the simulation now a number of times with various mineral concentrations. Lower germ produces 1 higher tech level after the 5 year jumps. Iron and bor concentrations make no difference (of course). Planet counts vary a little, but are consistent and in all cases the colonized area is defensible. I have also run the 7% growth race against 9 expert AI's - this did take a while to reach 1st place and ended up with 500 or so less resources at year 50 but, still was consistent. By year 58 the race had taken over the neighboring HW.
I then ran it against 2 other 7% growth races of different PRT's for comparison - with all 3, results were fairly close, then I ran it again with the 3 and tried to kill one with each (i.e. fighting myself) - again, the results were consistent. The PRT's of those tests are classified 
The main advantages to SS (other than it's stealth) is that it will have the strongest shielded ships - makes SS a very attractive option.
PP can kill off early colonies so easily - like swatting flies - and that really does hurt the growth of the 7% neighbor. Even hitting a nearby HW with small warp 8, 9 or 11 packets hurts the pop production of a neighbor race badly - and the damage is worse on those new colonies - even to the point of obliterating them.
IT's advantages are cut way down for the early to mid game. The IT simply doesn't have pop to move to build up colonies.
WM, SD and are pretty much unaffected and are simply limited in their growth, though WM will benefit better in a primitive game than in most others. Making it take LSP is a little painful.
IS no longer gains very much with 3.5% growth in ships. That 3.5% can be taken a little advantage of by calculating for the number to grow to equal 70 colonists since that will equal 100 colonists of growth (170 will equal 200 growth - etc.). For the IS, those Croby frigates are going to be very useful as well. The pain for the IS is that weapons COST 25% more. With low econs, that's going to make any fighting a little more difficult.
Of all the PRT's available, I personally think IT is the worse one for this game.
CA - well, CA is CA. A one immune CA will always be deadly - LSP or no LSP. However, for the 50 year run, ALL the races that have LSP requirements are down in the resource count by 15-20% or more.
Ptolemy
[Updated on: Tue, 10 July 2007 13:31]
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| Re: Glacier - A Primitive/Slow Growth game |
Tue, 10 July 2007 15:19 |
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 mlaub |
 | Lieutenant |
Messages: 744
Registered: November 2003
Location: MN, USA | |
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| Ptolemy wrote on Tue, 10 July 2007 12:29 |
| Quote: |
I haven't reached Ptolemy's posted 2450 figures either. Am I concerned? No, not really.
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Hrrrmmmph.... Not worried! Hah perhaps you should be! .... I made my figures with 7% growth races
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Well, I doubt you are managing pop better than me, and vice versa. That is a given with this low of pop game/nil MM. So, that means you are buying a better econ somehow with the 7%. Very easy to do, as there are certain things I won't give up. This means you feel that res are more important than what I am giving up for those res...
As to who is right, we will see. 
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The main advantages to SS (other than it's stealth) is that it will have the strongest shielded ships - makes SS a very attractive option.
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60 vs 75dp is significant, but is actually a trivial jump. So you will need 1 more sapper ship... No reason to take RS, just for that.
As a matter of fact, this is one of the few games were RS is not a no brainer. There will be signifcant advantages to heavily armored ships. All beams less than weap17 will have problems burning though stacks of armor. I very much doubt anyone will reach weap18. If we have a WM, that makes it to the end, the best weapon in the game will be the Gatling Neutrino. The weapon gets the triple advantage of being able to be put on the cheap BC Hull (lighter than a BB, even with armor), moves fast, and fires at all stacks in range. Possibly, the ultimate ship, if you can stomach the WM weaknesses.
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PP can kill off early colonies so easily - like swatting flies - and that really does hurt the growth of the 7% neighbor. Even hitting a nearby HW with small warp 8, 9 or 11 packets hurts the pop production of a neighbor race badly - and the damage is worse on those new colonies - even to the point of obliterating them.
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Defenses, defenses, defenses. I can't stress this enough. Also, scanning and freighters in space, ready to grab packets will be a good plan.
You can basically take the PP PRT and make it nearly worthless in a game like this, if you pay attention and are prepared. Medium Sparse should give everyone ample room to catch packets. I can count on 2 fingers the number of people who have prepared for a packet attack, in the games I have played. I have always wondered what others thought I was doing, jinking my freighters on borders I thought were ripe for a premptive strike via packets...  Maybe they thought I was inept?
-Matt
Global Warming - A climatic change eagerly awaited by most Minnesotans.
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| Re: Glacier - A Primitive/Slow Growth game |
Tue, 10 July 2007 15:43 |
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Defenses, defenses, defenses. I can't stress this enough. Also, scanning and freighters in space, ready to grab packets will be a good plan.
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Early in the game, there won't be enough privateers free to leave sitting on those new colonies 200ly from the HW. A PP that has cheap energy will be throwing warp 11 packets by 2453 and warp 12 soon after. All he needs is the UD9. Whether any PP ever gets to En 17 or 20 is a big question, but warp 12 packets reach tagets 216 ly away in 2 turns. Warp 11 hits anything 181.5 ly away in 2 turns. Freighters need to be stationed at where the packets will be at launch to intercept them - and if the warp is changed, they won't get it before it can hit.
Of course one wants defenses, but only factoryless (and anyone not building econ in a low growth game is just plain nuts - or AR) is going to be building defenses before some factories, and 4 or 5 defenses on a 25k colony won't save it from a PP mass driver 120 ly or less away (provided the PP has minerals available)......
Yes, to hit 8k in 50 turns, you need econ - that's a given.
RS is still a question. Early on, it's still going to be worthwhile.. It will only be after con 10 for SS and con 12 for others that the RS value will start to die. Then, having RS is going to hurt - and bad
Ptolemy.
[Updated on: Tue, 10 July 2007 15:44]
Though we often ask how and why, we must also do to get the answers to the questions.Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Glacier - A Primitive/Slow Growth game |
Tue, 10 July 2007 16:00 |
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| PaulCr |
 | Chief Warrant Officer 3
Stars! V.I.P
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Messages: 187
Registered: February 2007
Location: An Island that kinda look... | |
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The main advantages to SS (other than it's stealth) is that it will have the strongest shielded ships - makes SS a very attractive option
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The tech bonus SS gets looks like a big advantage, especially since it's likely everyone will have virtually the same tech settings. With no tech trading and no artefacts meaning virtually all research is done with resources they are effectively getting each level for half price. ie if everyone has the same tech and they all need 1000 resources to reach the next level, SS will get 500 of the resources they need for free so they only need to invest 500.
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| Re: Glacier - A Primitive/Slow Growth game |
Tue, 10 July 2007 16:16 |
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ie if everyone has the same tech and they all need 1000 resources to reach the next level, SS will get 500 of the resources they need for free so they only need to invest 500.
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well... not exactly... Production (and research) happens before the SS spy bonus is added. So, if you need 1000 resources to get to weapons 8 but only have 900 to spend, you will spend those resources getting there. The spy bonus will then be added, and may give you weaps 8, the extra will still be in weapons making weapons 9 a little closer. The SS tests I did with AI's present didn't get all that much better tech over 50 years - 2 to 3 levels average. In reality, that may be a level or 2 more. However, if the SS doesn't have the econ base, those extra research bonuses will, most likely, just keep it up with the stronger econ race as far as tech goes.
Ptolemy
Ptolemy
Though we often ask how and why, we must also do to get the answers to the questions.Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Glacier - A Primitive/Slow Growth game |
Tue, 10 July 2007 16:46 |
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Here's the current status (as of 3:00pm PST, 7/12) on the race files I've received:
| mlaub wrote on Thu, 28 June 2007 18:07 |
Interested players so far:
1. Dogthinkers
2. Sulpholobus - received on 7/10
3. Ptolemy - received on 7/10
4. Eric - received on 7/10
5. mlaub - received on 7/10
6. Steve - received on 7/10
7. Marduk - received on 7/11
8. Soobie - received ver 2 on 7/11
9. Dethdukk - received on 7/12
10. Paul - received on 7/10
11. Joseph - received on 7/10
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All dates received based on PST.
If you've sent in a race before this was updated and you don't see a confirmation here, let me know!
Thanks,
Thor
[Updated on: Thu, 12 July 2007 18:00] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Glacier - A Primitive/Slow Growth game |
Wed, 11 July 2007 10:51 |
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I've been simply pointing out some simple facts. Generally, I only build the ships I need and, stationing ships to sit in space and wait for potential mass packets is an awful expensive undertaking - especially in a primitive game.
SD, SS, IS and PP are the most attractive choices for this game since they have no real handicaps. I have done very well with all of them in tests. The real questions have been which LRT's to use and not use - and whether to go with 4 expensive or 3 expensive techs.....
Granted, as in most games, a little luck at the start for green planets will make a major difference for almost any race. As one player pointed out farther back up this thread - what's the use of taking 1 in 2 hab or 2 immunities with wide hab when you aren't going to be able to grow very much population to put on so many green planets?
Ptolemy
[Updated on: Wed, 11 July 2007 10:52]
Though we often ask how and why, we must also do to get the answers to the questions.Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Glacier - A Primitive/Slow Growth game |
Sun, 15 July 2007 12:54 |
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This topic is now locked.
Good luck to all in the game.
Ptolemy
Though we often ask how and why, we must also do to get the answers to the questions.Report message to a moderator
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