Dogthinkers wrote on Mon, 02 July 2007 00:38

I'm wondering, if the game really will prove as slow as expected, couldn't a forced ending at 2550 prove premature?

Well...2550 is 150 years. Granted, the game probably won't heat up till 2450, soooo 100 years of war? That's a good game in my book. I liked Michas 101yrs game, it seemed just right for time. Kept everyone interested.

Plus, if everyone wants to play another, I can host another one. That way you can tweak your race again.

-Matt

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Ptolemy wrote on Mon, 02 July 2007 09:13

The IT fares pretty bad with the LSP - by 2450 that reduction generally causes it to have around 1k less resources than others.

Yea! About time IT pays the piper for being able to gate everything.

Actually, IT will gradually catch up, in the long run. Without LSP, they start off with a pop advantage, and it just keeps growing with the ability to gate pop to the frontline worlds. Plus, if they get to BB's, that's a heck of an advantage too.

-Matt

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[Updated on: Mon, 02 July 2007 22:24]

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[Updated on: Mon, 02 July 2007 18:38]

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[Updated on: Mon, 02 July 2007 22:25]

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Ptolemy wrote on Mon, 02 July 2007 16:07

I don't see any of the other LRT's even worth considering in this game.

Not checking OBRM or ARM will give you pretty good mining. The other LRT that might be worth while is UR. I see value in that. Not sure I see enough to take it, but it is attractive.

Quote:

I do like primitive games so, this should be fun. Perhaps we may wish to go beyond the 150 years. It is quite possible that 150 years will not be enough to determine a definitive winner.

Let's see what things look like at Y2525. My guess is that someone will have been the clear victor by 2550. If not, and everyone who is left wants to continue, we will. I just am not much interested in sitting around waiting for nubians. I can guarentee I won't be. I am fairly certain a couple of others won't be content to sit and build tech, either. And, that sort of mentality makes for either a short game, or runaway victory.

-Matt

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Ptolemy wrote on Tue, 03 July 2007 00:07

AR - well - AR in this game just plain sucks. There isn't enough growth for an AR to keep up with the other PRT's.

Hmm. I ran a test with 6% AR ... it had 6K economy at 2450. What i did hate was that i had to colonize 30 planets for that. Unlikely that anyone lets it to have so lot of planets and even if it happens it will be probably quite tiresome to defend such 30 planets of 200 resources each in a sparse galaxy. Best part of it is that it is completely immune to PP unlike rest of the guys.

Ptolemy wrote on Tue, 03 July 2007 05:21

The problem for the AR was the low growth rate. Setting down a colony on a 100% planet and feeding pop to it only grows at 25% of the HW until a space dock is built, then it only grows at 50% of the HW until you can get a space station. Other races will grow the same as their HW on a 100% planet. With expensive con, the AR would be very lucky to ever reach the deathstar.

Thats NOT TRUE! AR grows in fort as good as it grows in deathstar! Only the maximum amount of pop is affected and no colony of mine reached 25% hold of fort (62500) so docks were fine and i built stations only where i wanted to build remote miners.

Oh and other thing i found to be bit tricky for AR was to have that jumpy 1,5,5,5 genning schedule during its most important expansion phase. But ... i managed.

[Updated on: Tue, 03 July 2007 00:03]

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[Updated on: Tue, 03 July 2007 12:30]

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[Updated on: Tue, 03 July 2007 14:32]

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Ptolemy wrote on Tue, 03 July 2007 19:29

The race better get to 6k ding that and not have to eat up half the galaxy or more to get there - i.e. the race 'footprint' needs to be defendable.

I agree that taking 1/7 of the galaxy is perhaps bit too rude when others have only 6 planets colonized but what to do then? This is AR-ish alternate way to claim whatever it can since count of planets plays as important role as energy tech. At bright side its also cheaper to evacuate that single privateer of pop. If ccmaster plays his -F HE-s so happily then i dont see why some AR with 200 res/planet is worse.

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Kotk wrote on Tue, 03 July 2007 17:17

If ccmaster plays his -F HE-s so happily then i dont see why some AR with 200 res/planet is worse.

LOL. Not in my game, he won't. HE is banned.

I tested AR, and thought it was possible. I am no AR expert, but could still beat normal races tech with just 25 planets. Easily doable. Still, very vulnerable tho.

-Matt

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Ptolemy wrote on Sun, 01 July 2007 22:28

I guess you haven't played many Primitive games.... Forget 25k by 2450 - you won't get there. Nobody will. A more realistic target is around 6 or 7k. Look at the race design options - selecting 7% growth provides over 600 resource points - that click from 7 to 8 is COSTLY.

Well that makes me feel much better. Yes, I did look lower than 8%, I actually tested 5% - but it didn't take long to decide that it has to be either 7% or 8%. And no, I have never before played a primitive game.

Quote:

You're in a medium SPARSE universe - test in one. With a one immune, I had 16 planets colonized but, 5 of them had less than 10k pop in 2450. Of the rest, some wre OK greens also. There just wasn't pop to put on them. Dont forget - scrap all your ships with the fuel pod. You can't use it.

Yes, Medium Sparse - and no fuel pods, fuel ships or any other modern convenience, it seems like. That made IT all the more attractive, though with PP races made appealing by enhanced deadliness I am not sure I want to play the perfect target.

mlaub wrote on Mon, 02 July 2007 01:12

Quote: Is getting the tech for Jihad cruisers by 2432 good, bad, adequate? Edit: Other than the no-missiles stipulation, of course. If you can manage that tech, you are doing great! You are using expensive con and Weapons, right?

Of course. That was with an IT, so I had the good starting tech - it would have taken notably longer if I hadn't had gates and privateers available without research.

As for ending at 2550, I agree with mlaub. I am not going to wait for nubians. Early losses are just too catastrophic here to not try to cause them. As fragile as we will be, and as violent as some of us will be, I expect we will finish up early.

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Marduk wrote on Wed, 04 July 2007 13:59

... mlaub wrote on Mon, 02 July 2007 01:12 Quote: Is getting the tech for Jihad cruisers by 2432 good, bad, adequate? Edit: Other than the no-missiles stipulation, of course. If you can manage that tech, you are doing great! You are using expensive con and Weapons, right?

grrrr The max res I've got at 2432 is about 2400, and over that period I have about half the 46K res available for tech that I needed to get weaps 12, let alone the cons tech.

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Soobie wrote on Wed, 04 July 2007 01:55

grrrr The max res I've got at 2432 is about 2400, and over that period I have about half the 46K res available for tech that I needed to get weaps 12, let alone the cons tech.

Well, I am really good at purely economic aspects. If it helps, that was achieved with only two scouts built and no minelayers or warships. No extraneous tech research - just four more levels of con tech and the nine extra levels of weapon tech. Also an excellent planet draw and being an IT I had a minimum amount of 'travel waste'. Oh yes, and the bare minimum shipbuilding required to keep exporting population at an optimum rate.

That is why I was concerned... basically circumstances were perfect, every effort was directed to reaching those tech levels, and I still missed my target date of 2430. Perhaps I should have done the math ahead of time. The results I got were the closest to the maximum possible that I have ever achieved.

Now that I have a decent idea of what is possible, I can make better decisions about trading off per-system economy for better hab values, and vice-versa. I also have a good idea of how many systems I can reasonably occupy over the first 50 years, so I know approximately at what point better hab settings become wasteful.

All I have to do now is finally decide what PRT I will be playing.

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Marduk wrote on Thu, 05 July 2007 02:12

Also an excellent planet draw and being an IT I had a minimum amount of 'travel waste'. Oh yes, and the bare minimum shipbuilding required to keep exporting population at an optimum rate.

Strange that you even mention the ships and stuff.
Rules say: IT, LSP, PGR 8%, W and C cost +75%

W12 + C9 is 61K resources.
race puts about 12-13K res into planetary facilities.
Say 1-2K into energy, electronics, bio and terraforming and bare minimum of ships?
So ... 75K invested during 32 years.

It is 2.3K resources invested per year. I suggest that you achieved mathematically impossible thing.

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Kotk wrote on Wed, 04 July 2007 21:28

Marduk wrote on Thu, 05 July 2007 02:12 Also an excellent planet draw and being an IT I had a minimum amount of 'travel waste'. Oh yes, and the bare minimum shipbuilding required to keep exporting population at an optimum rate. Strange that you even mention the ships and stuff. Rules say: IT, LSP, PGR 8%, W and C cost +75% W12 + C9 is 61K resources. race puts about 12-13K res into planetary facilities. Say 1-2K into energy, electronics, bio and terraforming and bare minimum of ships? So ... 75K invested during 32 years. It is 2.3K resources invested per year. I suggest that you achieved mathematically impossible thing.

Your math is a little wrong. It is actually invested over 33 years (remember 2400 is a year) - though I did forget that LSP was required for IT. That would certainly have delayed reaching the tech by a bit. But 60343 resources for W12 + C9, under 500 for ships, around 2400 for mines, and the rest (a bit over 10k) for cost 5 factories.

Why would I put anything at all into energy, electronics or bio tech? They all started at three, more than enough for moving population around. The secondary system was 100% and I think the other two worlds I colonized were both over 90%; at any rate I remember terraforming was minimal. I spent less than 500 resources on ships - only two scouts, remember, and with no fuel pods the privateers had only the engine. I did not bother to build significant numbers of mines anywhere but the homeworld... the HW had a good starting germ concentration. As an IT colonizing two other systems, you end up with less than 8% of your population (the amount you pull from the breeders) losing out on growth each year.

Also, you are probably assuming a 1/1000 pop resource setting - for an IT under these restrictions there is no reason not to improve that. Where else would you spend your points? Habitat settings you can never exploit?

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mlaub wrote on Fri, 06 July 2007 02:08

Just had a question on the rule "ALL players MUST have all ships battle orders set to 'attack everyone'" What I mean, is under Battle Plans, for whatever orders you are using, set "Attack who:" to "Everyone". You can set Primary target, Secondary Target, and Tactic to whatever you want. Hope this helps. -Matt

That'll be me that asks the dumb questions

Thank you, it helps.

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Conundrums - conundrums... What to do...

Well, the game will start soon and races will need to be sent so, I guess it's simply time to choose the PRT and get on with it. I've run all my tests that I care to run now - gonna take one I like and see what happens...... So many options, so much confusion

Later on in the year, I will host another Primitive game myself -they generally are so nice to play since turns don't take very long.

I guess I've decided on my PRT - be it a good or bad choice - time to pack it up and send the file to Wizard.

Ptolemy

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Well, I'm pretty much ready - I've managed to hit 8k + by year 50. In a testbed with 9 AI's, I managed 7.5k with fleets for defense / offense. So, I guess the race should work out OK.

Ptolemy

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