Home » Stars! 2.6/7 » New Game Announcements » Begintermediate Game - Us Versus Them
| Re: Begintermediate Game - Us Versus Them |
Wed, 04 April 2007 15:22   |
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...as teaming up three first timers wouldn't generate much mentoring...
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That's true, it'd also be lopsided to put newbie's together and expirenced players together on different teams. A short description could be very useful.
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Is there a reason 2 players couldn't control 3 races to get the 12 race total?
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Controling 3 races? why 3? You only need 2 to get to 12. Wouldn't that bring us upto 10 players and 14 races? Plus it seems reasonable that if we did that, we'd have to put those races on the same teams. So the owners don't have races in other teams. And team game with yourself? I was just thinking we pair the weakest with the strongest player. Or at least the one with the most expirence to form the 3rd team which would have 4 players.
Another way we could assess everyone's rough skill level is to see how many resources they can manage by 2450. That would give some indication of the economic potential of each player. And generally speaking we use that to gauge who should be with whom and who needs the most expirence.
So, who decides who to pair us up with?
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| Re: Begintermediate Game - Us Versus Them |
Wed, 04 April 2007 15:23 |
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I am a total rookie, never played a multi-player game. Maybe I should be in the 4 man team, since I might be less help and could even prove a burden in some circumstances.
3 players in each of 3 teams + me in the 4th team.
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| Re: Begintermediate Game - Us Versus Them |
Thu, 05 April 2007 03:56 |
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I found that 2 races is only fun with 2 people with 2 races. When I first started playing my friend (who introduced me to Stars), he and I would play 4 player team games against the AI. I'd take two PRTs and he'd take two. That worked out alright cause it was fast paced, we'd do 70 turns a day... But it always defocuses the player from either race, so yeah, it's easier and more interesting to do 1 per player.
I've made 30k with a CA (1WW, impractical race), and 27k with an IT (playable race). So I know how to run an economy, but I'm here cause my combat expirence is far less developed. (I can't just sit down for a month and run races from 0 to 50 over and over to gain expirence.)
Oh and ADG_Wraith, I took a few pages out of your book on how to get a good strong economy.  I've woven those lessons into my current race build.
I've played in... 5 online games as a , I've hosted 2 games so far and I've played as an ancient trade race in "Super King Of The Hill" (SKOTH) (so it could be 6 games but I wasn't exactly on the same level as the other races so I don't count my time in SKOTH.) I also played as a stand in for 2 games.
As for editing the maps I've got pretty much every tool out there, including some I made myself. One thing I can do is trade homeworlds. This process involves uprooting a player with freighters and a colonizer, flying to another homeworld. At this point I'd edit the HST so that the new world is 100% perfect. Wash rinse repeat. My tool to simply exchange ownership only works on unencrypted HST files, and I don't know why. So the other is the only viable option. This method is fast and straight forward.
Another option is to edit the XY file and gen the map until I can shift the player's homeworlds together. This method I can do without any chance that I might sneak a peek at your races. It takes a little longer but I can wait, I'm patient. But yeah I can shift the worlds up or down using this method. Your starting ships will be a little wonky (they'll think they're back where your HW was not where it is), this corrects it self the moment you move them, so that's the only side effect.
Does anyone have any opinion on mineral concentrations for their HWs?
For those of you who are still in, please post. I need a head count.
And PM me your races if your ready, please include email address and race name.
We'll also have to solidify game parameters.
[Updated on: Thu, 05 April 2007 06:03]
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| Re: Begintermediate Game - Us Versus Them |
Thu, 05 April 2007 07:55 |
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I'm definately in.
"And PM me your races if your ready, please include email address and race name"
Do you want to assign teams 1st before we design races?
Does anyone have any opinion on mineral concentrations for their HWs?
More than 40 and less than 60 please.
I can make a race that gets 30k in 50 years, but typically play a race that is more aggessive and faster starting, with less end game capacity. In my games vrs the AI it's over before 50 years, but I rarely have 25k when I am done.
I have never launched a packet, built defenses, or layed a minefield vrs the AI, and usually beating their fleets is a simple matter of counter design with fleets of higher tech and 10% of their size. I suspect I have developed some bad habits that might be hard to shake, and think I will learn some tough lessons in my 1st real game, even with advice from others.
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| Re: Begintermediate Game - Us Versus Them |
Thu, 05 April 2007 18:26 |
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| Traveller wrote on Thu, 05 April 2007 04:55 |
I'm definately in.
"And PM me your races if your ready, please include email address and race name"
Do you want to assign teams 1st before we design races?
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I still need a head count, and <shrug> I suppose it could go either way. I haven't hosted a team game before, and assigning teams is something I haven't had to do before. I figured I'd get the list, get the races, review what everyone's said and then start picking and choosing.
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Does anyone have any opinion on mineral concentrations for their HWs?
More than 40 and less than 60 please.
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That's interesting, do able, even if I have to I can edit the MC values to say 59 or 50.. Anyone have another opinion on this?
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I can make a race that gets 30k in 50 years, but typically play a race that is more aggessive and faster starting, with less end game capacity. In my games vrs the AI it's over before 50 years, but I rarely have 25k when I am done.
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That's an interesting point. Okay, forget the all time scores. Let's concentrate on what it is you'll be playing with. Matching a delayed strength race with a rapid strength race seems like a really good deal. And the 3rd race? I don't know right now what to do with the 3rd race on that part of things.
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[color=blue]I have never launched a packet, built defenses, or layed a minefield vrs the AI, and usually beating their fleets is a simple matter of counter design with fleets of higher tech and 10% of their size. I suspect I have developed some bad habits that might be hard to shake, and think I will learn some tough lessons in my 1st real game, even with advice from others.[/blue]
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Time to brake some habits then.
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| Re: Begintermediate Game - Us Versus Them |
Thu, 05 April 2007 22:46 |
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I hate replying to myself, but it just occurred to me that since many of us probably haven't solidifed what race we're going to be playing with, that my previous assertion on pairing people off it rather mute.
As I see it, we have a few options on team allocation:
1) random roll of the dice
2) reading player experience reviews to determine best matches
3) pick a partner and form teams on our own.
4) have a 3rd party do either 1, or 2
5) pick a player number and have a random list on what numbers go with who.
6) I generate a map of the right size and density that we want to play on, I put in 10 dummy players, one for each of us. Then I let people pick a player number, first come first serve, I'll take whatever number is left. I can then use that to assign teams based on the geographical locations on the map. I pick the 3-(or 4) races nearest each corner. That way we all start together, and we all took part in the allocation. This is also the most simple way to ensure that teams start together. Because I can recreate the same exact map, but with each player seated in his chosen slot.
I may still use the method in 6 if we choose teams another way. The downside is that nessessarily the teams won't be numerically allocated in a nice progression. (1, 2, 3 are teamed, 4, 5,6 are teamed, etc..) It will look more like this: 1, 5, 3 are teamed, 4, 2, 9 are teamed, etc... But 1, 5 and 3 all start next to eachother, same with 4, 2 and 9, and so on.
Like I said, it's the easiest way to get us all in the right places.
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| Re: Begintermediate Game - Us Versus Them |
Fri, 06 April 2007 11:09 |
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I think we should select 3 players to lead each team and choose it's name. It appears that the following players have some reasonable experience.
ADG_Wraith
countvasquez
Captain Maim
They can just recruit from the rest of us as they wish and start building their team / races? Each of them can select 1 of us in turn until they have a complete team. They can of course contact all of us to disceern our experience and willingness to play to their game plan before choosing.
I propose a medium dense universe with 3 teams (4 players each, 30 planets per player). Recruiting 2 more players should be easy enough I think.
Once team captains are assigned I think the recruitment / race design phase will move - quickly.
We can get a 3rd party to remap the HW locations to make things work once the race files are done.
Conrad
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| Re: Begintermediate Game - Us Versus Them |
Sat, 07 April 2007 02:32 |
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| Traveller wrote on Fri, 06 April 2007 08:09 |
I think we should select 3 players to lead each team and choose it's name. It appears that the following players have some reasonable experience.
ADG_Wraith
countvasquez
Captain Maim
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That works too.
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We can get a 3rd party to remap the HW locations to make things work once the race files are done.
Conrad
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Or we can just use non consecutive player numbers and let the map determine what player numbers are neighbors. Then each team would get 4 starting locations to choose from. Using seed numbers I can make the exact same map every time, player count independent. It's a lot easier than remapping, I know cause I've done remapping, and it's pretty luck of the draw baring what I said earlier about trading homeworlds, but that requires full control of the races and yeah a 3rd party can do that, if they've got my tool they can do it in 1 gen of the map.
I'm not sure there's 10 of us who are actually still reading this thread.
[Updated on: Sat, 07 April 2007 02:51]
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| Re: Begintermediate Game - Us Versus Them |
Sat, 07 April 2007 04:47 |
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The other issue with re-mapping is that planets can only be moved north/south. East/west isn't possible.
Ptolemy
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| Re: Begintermediate Game - Us Versus Them |
Sat, 07 April 2007 05:20 |
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absolutely true Ptolemy.
In order to east west movement you'd have to edit the HST file so that say, planet #34 becomes a twin with the destination planet say planet #300. You could then to preserve uniqueness, you'd either make up some random settings for planet #34 or just copy what planet #300 was onto planet #34. Your ships in orbit will still be at planet #34 however. That is because you didn't actually move anything at all.
What I was saying about remapping is you can move up and down all you want but left and right is where things get extra sticky.
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| Re: Begintermediate Game - Us Versus Them |
Sat, 07 April 2007 09:26 |
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Generate a random map, note the player numbers and locations then assign the numbers to each team in a fashion that makes sense (grouped together). We'd need a neutral 3rd party to set it up, and tell us what numbers are assigned to each team.
For example
Team 1 : Player 1, 3, 7, 8
Team 2 : Player 4, 5, 9, 11
team 3 : Player 2, 6, 10, 12
That way the team captain could assign player numbers strategically, after considering which races to place closest to the enemy front line, in the safer corner spot, team bombing / battle board position etc.
If we end up with less than 12 players some teams will have to have 3 players. You can handicap the 4 player teams by assigning the weaker players, or giving them a race design penalty.
You could send the PW race files for the dummy races used in generation to each team leader so he can see where his team starts relative to each other. Then when you regen the map with the real race files, his team members will be in their assigned locations based on the player nember he issues them.
[Updated on: Sat, 07 April 2007 09:29] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Begintermediate Game - Us Versus Them |
Sat, 07 April 2007 16:58 |
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There is a problem with this...namely IT and PP races...if you swap an IT/PP with an other race type the map(and positions) will change also
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| Re: Begintermediate Game - Us Versus Them |
Sat, 07 April 2007 20:58 |
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No new stars are added to the map, even when a player switches from IT or PP to another race. The map's star count and positions are constant. I just tested it. HW start spots are constant as well. 2nd homeworlds are also constant. They never change as long as the same seed number is used. The system is perfectly suited to this application.
[Updated on: Sat, 07 April 2007 22:17]
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| Using seeds (Re: Begintermediate Game - Us Versus Them) |
Sun, 08 April 2007 19:16 |
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| Micha | 
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Messages: 2342
Registered: November 2002
Location: Belgium GMT +1 | |
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| Captain Maim wrote on Fri, 06 April 2007 04:46 |
6) I generate a map of the right size and density that we want to play on, I put in 10 dummy players, one for each of us. Then I let people pick a player number, first come first serve, I'll take whatever number is left. I can then use that to assign teams based on the geographical locations on the map. I pick the 3-(or 4) races nearest each corner. That way we all start together, and we all took part in the allocation. This is also the most simple way to ensure that teams start together. Because I can recreate the same exact map, but with each player seated in his chosen slot.
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I suppose you're referring to using a seed here? I used that several times before and found that using dummy races won't work. When you recieve the real ones those have some sort of tag (coming from the other persons Stars! or machine) that will screw up your seed. So you either let the players sent in the dummies and play with those to find the positions, or use your own dummies and recreate each race on your own comp when the players sent you theirs (maybe opening and saving is enough) ...
As a side note your seed will only work on your own machine, if somebody else tries to use it they'll get a different result.
mch
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| Re: Begintermediate Game - Us Versus Them |
Sun, 08 April 2007 21:53 |
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Oh yeah... Thanks Micha... I seem to recall that problem now. Drat.
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| Re: Using seeds (Re: Begintermediate Game - Us Versus Them) |
Tue, 10 April 2007 11:02 |
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 mlaub |
 | Lieutenant |
Messages: 744
Registered: November 2003
Location: MN, USA | |
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| Micha wrote on Sun, 08 April 2007 18:16 |
| Captain Maim wrote on Fri, 06 April 2007 04:46 |
6) I generate a map of the right size and density that we want to play on, I put in 10 dummy players, one for each of us.
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I suppose you're referring to using a seed here? I used that several times before and found that using dummy races won't work.
mch
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Hmmm? I have done exactly that in in a couple of games. I don't remember my exact method, as it was some time ago (2001). I believe the trick is, IIRC, that you must know if someone is playing a IT or PP, for proper setup. The dual planets make the players next in line appear in a differnt place? can't remember...but I did figure it out. I know it's doable.
In your case, it might be quite a bit tougher using set player numbers as you can't interchange single HW races to get the desired placements.
-Matt
Global Warming - A climatic change eagerly awaited by most Minnesotans.
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| Re: Using seeds (Re: Begintermediate Game - Us Versus Them) |
Tue, 10 April 2007 14:53 |
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| mlaub wrote on Tue, 10 April 2007 09:02 |
Hmmm? I have done exactly that in in a couple of games. I don't remember my exact method, as it was some time ago (2001).
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The trick is the players must gen a dummy race using the machine they will gen the real race... and the dummy race must have the PRT of the real race.
regards,
dj
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| Re: Using seeds (Re: Begintermediate Game - Us Versus Them) |
Wed, 11 April 2007 03:44 |
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In my experience the second world doesn't have any baring on the location of other homeworlds. I know because I regularly have my 2nd world fairly close to either a HW or another 2nd world. The game only spaces the HW's apart by about 300ly to 700ly (assuming distant start and either a medium or large map respectively.)
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