Kotk wrote on Sat, 23 September 2006 00:59

I wonder why young people want not to learn C/C++?

I heard next Java will be actually *faster* than C/C++...

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m.a@stars wrote on Fri, 06 October 2006 12:02

I heard next Java will be actually *faster* than C/C++...

You missed my point there ... i was saying that knowledge of C/C++ makes one rich and beautiful. Not because java is slow. I said that java is *useless* or *unexistant* on most platforms and CPUs.

As for your gossip ... it is obviously crap. How can virtual processor emulator be quicker than raw thing? "Upcoming Pentium III emulator on new Nokia cellphones runs quicker than new Intel Core 2."

Of course one got to be careful here... raw things can be artifically made to run *slower* by OS maker. Fortunatelly at moment no OS maker is pushing java so ... Visual Basic or C# may become "quick" in that sense, never java.

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I'm not sure m.a@stars was being serious there. The point is still quite true for anyone who could seriously think that - C/C++ is inherently faster due to being compiled into actual machine code instead of merely interpreted bytecode.

Why do young people learn Java? To some extent they have (or think they have) no choice - for example at my college we learn Java for the first several programming classes: only once we get into operating systems classes do we learn C, and I don't think C++ is used for any of the classes.

Obviously a young enthusiastic programmer could learn C & C++ on their own (I did) but I bet many don't see the point: they can still do most things with Java, which appears to be easier, and it also seems more likely to get them a job. If you look online for jobs, at least around here, you see many advertised for people knowing Java or C#, but very few for C++.

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crr65536 wrote on Sat, 07 October 2006 19:14

If you look online for jobs, at least around here, you see many advertised for people knowing Java or C#, but very few for C++.

Where you live? I have never searched for job. Is there any industry around? Lets just take some random jobs site online? http://www.developers.net/careers
Its US site, so on other side of globe for me, but situation i talk about is global. Now:
select "c++" into "software focus" and you get 7992 jobs found.
select "java" there and you get 5558 jobs found.
select ".net" there and 5043 jobs found.

Companies know that universities prepare only C# or java guys. Also they know that c++ developer asks for sack of gold each month. However 40% more c++ developers than java guys are needed there.

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Quote:

i was saying that knowledge of C/C++ makes one rich and beautiful.

Besides a crack sportscars driver!

Quote:

Not because java is slow. I said that java is *useless* or *unexistant* on most platforms and CPUs.

Luckily we have assembler for those. Oh, the power!

Kotk wrote on Fri, 06 October 2006 15:13

As for your gossip ... it is obviously crap. How can virtual processor emulator be quicker than raw thing?

Obviously! But louder every week, I'm afraid.

[Updated on: Wed, 18 October 2006 10:52]

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Kotk wrote on Sat, 07 October 2006 13:55

Where you live? I have never searched for job. Is there any industry around? Lets just take some random jobs site online? http://www.developers.net/careers Its US site, so on other side of globe for me, but situation i talk about is global. Now: select "c++" into "software focus" and you get 7992 jobs found. select "java" there and you get 5558 jobs found. select ".net" there and 5043 jobs found. Companies know that universities prepare only C# or java guys. Also they know that c++ developer asks for sack of gold each month. However 40% more c++ developers than java guys are needed there.

It appears things have changed quite a bit in a couple of months - three months ago or so I looked and found results similar to what I said in my previous post; now employers are looking for mostly C++ people again.

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m.a@stars wrote on Wed, 18 October 2006 16:09

Quote: Not because java is slow. I said that java is *useless* or *unexistant* on most platforms and CPUs. Luckily we have assembler for those. Oh, the power!

Why? I havent heard for pure assembler careers offered for about 15 years. That is because all processors/platforms have C/C++ compiler. Assembler skill may be needed only on very odd cases. It is more likely you find practice for your FORTRAN or COBOL skill than for assembler. In our company things are developed in C++ and java with similar quickness. Java language lacks some features of C++, so it is easier to learn language not more powerful language.

Quote:

Obviously! But louder every week, I'm afraid.

You are actually serious about it? Can you provide URL where someone with reputation in industry spreads it.

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Kotk wrote on Wed, 18 October 2006 17:30

m.a@stars wrote on Wed, 18 October 2006 16:09 Quote: Not because java is slow. I said that java is *useless* or *unexistant* on most platforms and CPUs. Luckily we have assembler for those. Oh, the power! Why? I havent heard for pure assembler careers offered for about 15 years. That is because all processors/platforms have C/C++ compiler. Assembler skill may be needed only on very odd cases. It is more likely you find practice for your FORTRAN or COBOL skill than for assembler. In our company things are developed in C++ and java with similar quickness. Java language lacks some features of C++, so it is easier to learn language not more powerful language.

So very true. Still, assembler, much like COBOL, will never die!

Quote:

Quote: Obviously! But louder every week, I'm afraid. You are actually serious about it? Can you provide URL where someone with reputation in industry spreads it.

Reputation? I wouldn't say so, indeed. Most places comment on the danger of *believing* such propaganda rather than on the dangers of *ignoring* it.

But hey, it is still a nice fairy-tale, ain't it?

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That's enough! You now have your own thread!

mch,
modaw

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m.a@stars wrote on Tue, 07 November 2006 11:54

So very true. Still, assembler, much like COBOL, will never die!

Assembler and COBOL cannot be compared at all in the sense "it will die" or "it will die not".

Computers "think" (and will think forever) in their instructions. Instructions change from processor architecture to architecture but there has to always be some group of purple cloaked computer wizards who make programs that translate your java babbling into computer-understandable language. Assembler is list of processor instructions in human readable form. So there must be always them wizards who understand it.

One day Skynet comes with his Terminators and plugs us all into the Matrix and from then on he will program in assembler himself.

The knowledge of COBOL is needed for supporting or refactoring some old (but still very vital) system that is older than most human beings. These die gradually ... yes.

Quote:

But hey, it is still a nice fairy-tale, ain't it?

Dunno. I am actually relatively indifferent. Very important from productivity viewpoint is to let the developer to use tools and languages he likes and is used to. If someone likes Java, C++, python, ruby, lisp, Pascal, Ada, prolog, Smalltalk or (continue endless list here) ... he is most productive when using it. If to look at whatever language or tool separately ... it is crap. Not a pure crap ... something can be always done with it, but quite close. As for wizards ... they write mostly (close to 100%) in C (not in C++ that i like but in C) for some strange reasons we stupid mortals dont understand.

[Updated on: Tue, 07 November 2006 07:15]

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