Home » Stars! 2.6/7 » New Game Announcements » Looking For 2-3 Players For A Vs-AI Game.
Looking For 2-3 Players For A Vs-AI Game. |
Wed, 19 July 2006 15:37 |
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Crappicus | | Chief Petty Officer | Messages: 83
Registered: May 2004 Location: Canada | |
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Well, my Pitch Black game has, again, gone the way of Vin Diesel's career: It was awesome to start with, and then it sort of vanished without a trace.
Right now, I'm just looking for someone to be in a fun game with me, with clearly defined terms: I wanna get two or three people on here to be on the same team with me, in a large/huge dense/packed Universe, with the rest of the Universe filled with Harder/Expert AI's set to "Form Alliances".
Random events on
Accelerated BBS on
AI games might not be 100% popular, but it's a game that I would like to have a whack at, and I know a few people feel the same way I do. It wouldn't need a handler, I don't think, if we're all on the same team... it would just be Autohost generating turns, and us doing the turns.
Now, if we're all on the same team, we could agree which PRT's to be to complement eachother (obviously SOMEONE would be IT), and then try to survive a galaxy full of computer-generated enemies who want to see our heads on pikes.
If THIS game doesn't go anywhere, I'll just stop trying to make games.
I'm liquefyin'
Blood of lions
I aint dyin'
I am immortal.
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Re: Looking For 2-3 Players For A Vs-AI Game. |
Thu, 20 July 2006 10:44 |
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tgellan | | Chief Petty Officer | Messages: 75
Registered: May 2006 Location: Luxembourg | |
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Hello,
Basically I'd like it too... And though I used to prefer huge/normal games, huge/packed sounds like a hell of MM... If not for the later on cleaning operations of the AIs.
Therefor could you specify more in detail how you'd like to set up this game?
* HW positions altered or left alone
* Specific AIs or random
* Galaxy reshape like a center area with human players and the outer rim with the AI's, eventually separated by a gap
* Patch level, I suppose J ?
* Will it be run as PBEM or on Autohost?
* Turn interval?
* Public score?
* ...
As for the teammembers I think valuable are both IT and CA
[Updated on: Thu, 20 July 2006 12:05] Report message to a moderator
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Re: Looking For 2-3 Players For A Vs-AI Game. |
Thu, 20 July 2006 13:09 |
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Crappicus | | Chief Petty Officer | Messages: 83
Registered: May 2004 Location: Canada | |
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* HW positions altered or left alone
Left Alone.
* Specific AIs or random
Random
* Galaxy reshape like a center area with human players and the outer rim with the AI's, eventually separated by a gap
No reshape, that's just a pain.
* Patch level, I suppose J ?
I run J.
* Will it be run as PBEM or on Autohost?
PBEM would be easy... hell, I could do that.
* Turn interval?
36 / 48 hours once it gets going? With three-four human players, it would be easy to give a little extra time if needed, or generate early.
* Public score?
Not sure how to set it to any year OTHER than 2420, so... maybe put it to a vote? I like public scores.
* ...
...
99% of my Stars! experience is playing against two real-life buds (which doesn't work anymore, since Stars now INSISTS we all use the same serial code, which we really, really don't.) and single-player VS 15 Harder AI's.
I'm liquefyin'
Blood of lions
I aint dyin'
I am immortal.
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Re: Looking For 2-3 Players For A Vs-AI Game. |
Thu, 20 July 2006 21:49 |
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Crappicus wrote on Fri, 21 July 2006 03:09 | 99% of my Stars! experience is playing against two real-life buds (which doesn't work anymore, since Stars now INSISTS we all use the same serial code, which we really, really don't.) and single-player VS 15 Harder AI's.
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You might be unfortunate enough to be using a serial code that got 'banned' in J patch - that will show up with same message as if others in game had same serial. Try using the i patch instead and if problem goes away then you know it's the serials... You should definately check this as you will have problems in AH games if you are having this problem.
[Updated on: Thu, 20 July 2006 21:49] Report message to a moderator
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Re: Looking For 2-3 Players For A Vs-AI Game. |
Fri, 21 July 2006 04:02 |
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m.a@stars | | Commander | Messages: 2765
Registered: October 2004 Location: Third star to the left | |
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Crappicus wrote on Thu, 20 July 2006 19:09 | * HW positions altered or left alone
Left Alone.
* Specific AIs or random
Random
* Galaxy reshape like a center area with human players and the outer rim with the AI's, eventually separated by a gap
No reshape, that's just a pain.
* Patch level, I suppose J ?
I run J.
* Will it be run as PBEM or on Autohost?
PBEM would be easy... hell, I could do that.
* Turn interval?
36 / 48 hours once it gets going? With three-four human players, it would be easy to give a little extra time if needed, or generate early.
* Public score?
Not sure how to set it to any year OTHER than 2420, so... maybe put it to a vote? I like public scores.
* ...
...
99% of my Stars! experience is playing against two real-life buds (which doesn't work anymore, since Stars now INSISTS we all use the same serial code, which we really, really don't.) and single-player VS 15 Harder AI's.
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If I may offer some advice:
-- Only the HE AI poses any challenge at all, with the AR AI posing a challenge only if it has plenty of space to grow and reach high tech. The PP AI is at best a nuisance unless at very close quarters. The rest of the AIs don't expand and don't usually build attack fleets.
-- If you want the AIs to be hard to beat, you'll need to allow them room to expand. 6 Expert AIs will fare better than 10 in most galaxies.
-- You might advertise the game as "Medium/Intermediate" difficulty, as any expert player can eat 16 expert, non-broken AIs in a huge-dense for breakfast. Alternatively, you can turn the game into a test ground for outlandish/weird/highly specialised race designs.
Good luck!!
So many Stars, so few Missiles!
In space no one can hear you scheme! Report message to a moderator
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Re: Looking For 2-3 Players For A Vs-AI Game. |
Fri, 21 July 2006 04:33 |
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m.a@stars wrote on Fri, 21 July 2006 18:02 | ...
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Good advice.
Another thing to bear in mind - the AI won't tech trade with each other, so two or more allied human players will get a massive advantage just by tech trading.
I suggest maybe limiting the game to large/dense, 6-10 AIs, no more than 3 humans. Leave PPS on. Ban tech trading except to give tech to a player that has slipped at least 5 levels behind (total) the player with the highest tech.
Alternative idea:
Large/Dense, 13 expert AIs. Gen 20 years before the players can start submitting orders. Now there's the challenge I think you are after. You'll need to use all the unfair advantages you have (like tech trading...) to catch up.
EDIT: BTW, to set PPS at a year other than 20, just set an easy victory condition that activates on that year. PPS will then turn on once the game has been 'won'
{Mod edit: fixed quote}
[Updated on: Mon, 24 July 2006 06:08] by Moderator
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Re: Looking For 2-3 Players For A Vs-AI Game. |
Fri, 21 July 2006 04:39 |
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tgellan | | Chief Petty Officer | Messages: 75
Registered: May 2006 Location: Luxembourg | |
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m.a@stars wrote on Fri, 21 July 2006 10:02 |
If I may offer some advice:
-- Only the HE AI poses any challenge at all, with the AR AI posing a challenge only if it has plenty of space to grow and reach high tech. The PP AI is at best a nuisance unless at very close quarters. The rest of the AIs don't expand and don't usually build attack fleets.
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Don't know about this as I always use Random Enemies, but I've at least seen recently the SD AI expand... don't know if he'd attacked, he's been dead meat anyhow ) On the other hand, Crappicus wanted to play a large/huge dense/packed Universe, shouldn't that be enought for AR's?
Crappicus wrote on Thu, 20 July 2006 19:19 | Also, I think I want to be either SS or IT.
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ADG_Wraith wrote on Thu, 20 July 2006 02:30 | I'm in... SS or WM would be best for me, maybe IS... whatever works.
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I've got an IS race I'd like to give an attempt, if that's fine with ADG_Wraith?
Crappicus wrote on Fri, 21 July 2006 03:09 | 99% of my Stars! experience is playing against two real-life buds (which doesn't work anymore, since Stars now INSISTS we all use the same serial code, which we really, really don't.) and single-player VS 15 Harder AI's.
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Even less experience against humans on my count I'm currently finishing my first game against humans, though with an amazing result )
For the setup, in that mentioned game (6 players + 2 AIs), I realized that there is some order in the way Stars distributes the players... Don't know the exact order, but the AIs were Nbr7 and 8, myself being 6. The result was, that the AI ended both at about 200ly - 250ly from my HW (HE and PP). Which was actually very fine in that game, as some players had enough problems even without any interference...
Public score: I do like it too, though not in Human vs human plays...
For the setup, it's just fine with me whatever you choose, just need the information for the race design. As for keeping the HW positions, this means to me that the race needs to be designed mainly as a standard race and not as a team play tuned race?
{Mod edit: fixed quote}
[Updated on: Mon, 24 July 2006 06:10] by Moderator
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Re: Looking For 2-3 Players For A Vs-AI Game. |
Fri, 21 July 2006 05:29 |
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In my experience with AIs, which is considerable, m.a@stars is correct in every respect.
If u want any challenge at all u should have at least half HE AIs and no CAs (they just sit around until u kill them). I'd also suggest that if u have AR AIs in the game that u allow yourself only to defend against them until 2460 - otherwise u can just pick off all those Starter Colonies with single X-Ray scouts or send 2-3 reasonable CCs to kill the SDs.
I agree that fewer AIs is best - I'd suggest 8. Allow AI alliances - it doesn't make things much tougher & they still don't trade techs but it helps a little.
Dogthinker's idea about gening 20 years is good but I'd make it 30 years. I think he's also right re. tech trading for humans - you'll invade quite a lot of small AI planets , particularly the ones that colonise your planets with 1-2.5k pop right next to your HW, & you'll pick up techs that way in the early game & later you'll be so far ahead that you'll be fighting small lowish tech DD fleets when you've got BB Doom/Arma/MegaD.
AlexTheGreat
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Re: Looking For 2-3 Players For A Vs-AI Game. |
Fri, 21 July 2006 11:43 |
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Crappicus | | Chief Petty Officer | Messages: 83
Registered: May 2004 Location: Canada | |
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My serial code was purchased with cash money dollars, so it must be the serial codes my friends are using, since by the time they got into the game, you couldn't buy the damn game anymore.
Also, you make a good point about the AI's. I've never set up games like that, I always just hit "Random!" and I also usually play against 1/2 the normal # of AI's, IE if there's 12 slots, I set it to six AI's, but I didn't think anyone else liked it, so I didn't mention it.
Victory-public-player-score works, too, if no-one minds the "Yaddah has one the game!" Messages. Also, if we set the AI's to "form alliances", are you sure that they wouldn't pose a problem if we're the only ones they're attacking?
I'm glad I've got some interest in this!
I'm liquefyin'
Blood of lions
I aint dyin'
I am immortal.
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Re: Looking For 2-3 Players For A Vs-AI Game. |
Fri, 21 July 2006 15:33 |
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m.a@stars | | Commander | Messages: 2765
Registered: October 2004 Location: Third star to the left | |
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tgellan wrote on Fri, 21 July 2006 10:39 | but I've at least seen recently the SD AI expand... don't know if he'd attacked, he's been dead meat anyhow ) On the other hand, Crappicus wanted to play a large/huge dense/packed Universe, shouldn't that be enought for AR's?
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Well, yeah, the SD and the SS AI *do* expand some... if you can call building a 25-planet empire in a Huge universe while everyone else builds 100+ planet empires "expanding"
The PP AI expands more, 50+ planet empires aren't unusual at all... but it relies too much in packets and their fleets suffer from mineral scarcity.
The HE and AR AIs OTOH, *overexpand*, i.e: they colonise more than they can defend early, but woe to you if you allow them to develop all those tiny outposts...
Even if "AI alliances" are allowed, not all AIs will automagically ally. And even if they do, the AR AI can be easily suffocated by overexpanding neighbors.
One thing to note is that the AIs can and will tech-trade under the right conditions, i.e: continued popdrop war, continued skirmishes or both, where none of them manage to get the upper hand, and when you attack them *poof* they ally and all have better tech than you.
Yeah, I know, too many AI-solo games!
PS: you want a nice challenge? setup a huge/dense with 16 players, don't allow *any kind* of alliances, either human or AI, and award victory to the race who kills more enemies. Pls note that allowing one AI (or one human) to kill a weaker AI is bad for your own score, so ...
So many Stars, so few Missiles!
In space no one can hear you scheme! Report message to a moderator
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Re: Looking For 2-3 Players For A Vs-AI Game. |
Mon, 24 July 2006 03:08 |
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tgellan | | Chief Petty Officer | Messages: 75
Registered: May 2006 Location: Luxembourg | |
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Hi,
Just did a small test over the weekend...
Normal size, highest density
6 random AI's, (med. instead of exp.)
Autogen. 20 years
Public Score
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In 2450 I caught up with Res with the leading AI (PP, 2.), whose res are still exploding. Currently there are a few DD Beta fleets (size 5-10), mainly from the SS AI (3.) and very few from the PP. Due to surpise and stealth, the SS managed to pick 2 docks, now that I'm on guard, it's no big deal defending with range 2 beamers.
For the rest of the AI's, I haven't met them yet, but planet wise, there can't be any HE or AR. Whatever race they are, they really don't expand over a handfull of planets. The 20 year did hinder me far less than I'd expected, as I ended up with en10, and a HW crowding of colonists. A few turns later I got con4, scouts reporting, and colonizers on their way, I was able to export like mad... Still I should pick "low starting pop" even more with a 30 years gen...
So another question about the setup is, if the players will get a chance to define the queue on year 2400, or will it be set to mineral alchemy? Something that would be more a challenge is to reduce the "starting population" after that timewarp back to the level from year 2400... Maybe to hard?
I think I have to start another test, with all of the races (and set them to exp. as ment), timewarping 30 years, and doing mineral alchemy like hell, (hm there's a LRT that comes to mind...)
Another thing worth mentioning, even with setting them to alliance, I've seen the PP killing of AI planets with huge packages... and yes I had already war status with both AI's (was another game though)
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Re: Looking For 2-3 Players For A Vs-AI Game. |
Mon, 24 July 2006 04:00 |
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I would say try again but with these settings:
- Auto Mineral Alchemy forced with 0% to research
- No other build orders allowed
- Expert AI (just HE and AR?)
- 20 years jump
Keep the 'free' minerals and population. It's much simpler to set up and the AI has gained a lot more of these in the meantime than you have anyway...
I think this will be a tough start... But still winable, thanks to warfare incompetance of AI
(completely off topic: I wonder if anyone has tried to hack the AI so it queues autobuild factories THEN autobuild mines instead of trying to build mines first?)
[Updated on: Mon, 24 July 2006 04:02] Report message to a moderator
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Re: Looking For 2-3 Players For A Vs-AI Game. |
Tue, 25 July 2006 08:06 |
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m.a@stars | | Commander | Messages: 2765
Registered: October 2004 Location: Third star to the left | |
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Micha wrote on Mon, 24 July 2006 11:46 | Anyway, after 100s of years my world was still standing, there had been a lot of battles in orbit but the AI never won ...
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In my experience, the Expert HE AI can and will build ultrastation-busting fleets (without chaff or minesweepers, tho) at a scary pace once it's reached max tech and there's about 20 big AI planets focusing on your border.
Of course, a decent-sized minefield will greatly hurt all those AI fleets, and any kind of orbit defense (say, a half dozen BBs or nubians) will almost always win the day.
Even so, some times 5 or 6 groups of those deadly Capital Metamorphs (plus attendant B52s) will converge at once on your outpost and risk taking it...
So many Stars, so few Missiles!
In space no one can hear you scheme! Report message to a moderator
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Re: Looking For 2-3 Players For A Vs-AI Game. |
Tue, 25 July 2006 10:43 |
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tgellan | | Chief Petty Officer | Messages: 75
Registered: May 2006 Location: Luxembourg | |
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m.a@stars wrote on Tue, 25 July 2006 14:22 | And the more AIs there are the easier it gets.
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This started out as a minor change to the setup, but has somewhat grown, as I was typing this... So what do you think about this altered setup?
3-4 Human players
12-13 HE Expert AI's merged into one
This would require modding the files such that all these 12-13 AI HW's are all owned by only one AI... That way, the option about "allowing" the AI to ally with its kind becomes irrelevant. Of course there won't be any longer any tectrading wars , but having the HE resources from 12-13 HW under its control, that should be no matter with research...
As we are at modding the files, in order to kickstart the AI even further, one could increase its starting tec and/or setting the HW populations to an extrem value, like 500%+ per HW. Yet another improvement would be to max out factories, mines and minerals on these worlds... How much res would that give the AI? Of course I don't know the settings for the HE AI, but taking the values for the default JOAT humanoids, not considering that it should have OBRM...
10Res/10000 -> 500 on 100%
That should be about 1000 with heavy overpopulation from 500%
10/10/10 Factories -> 500
should give about 12 * 1500 = 18000 res the very first turn!!!
If that doesn't boost the AI, nothing does
I think that way, it would be a challenge, in fact I fear that way the AI could even become unstoppable...
Of course someone who knows how to setup the game in this way would be required...
Comments?
Ps: Imagine the very first turn of the AI, 500+ Minicolonizers running around
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Re: Looking For 2-3 Players For A Vs-AI Game. |
Tue, 25 July 2006 22:28 |
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I really like the idea of having a single AI start with 12+ HW. Or maybe have 2 AI (one AR, one HE) start with 6 each, although then there's the risk they would fight each other If you placed one in the east and one in the west, with the humans in the middle, there wouldn't be too much danger of that though...
I don't think kick starting 12 seperate AIs is going to help them that much - it's the issue of planets available per race that cripples them. 6 AIs all with big kick starts would do well though.
I definately prefer the 'One Monster AI, Multiple HWs' idea, with 'Sandwiched Between Two Massive Beasts' (game title?) coming in second. If you decide to do it this way, then I'm definately up for playing. An effectively 12x accelerated AI should be a nasty threat - we'd be out resourced and out teched for a long time, I think.
EDIT: BTW, I know a couple of people here that I'm pretty sure could and would mod the start for us to change ownership of the extra homeworlds correctly.
[Updated on: Tue, 25 July 2006 22:31] Report message to a moderator
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