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[Updated on: Thu, 20 July 2006 12:05]

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* HW positions altered or left alone
Left Alone.
* Specific AIs or random
Random
* Galaxy reshape like a center area with human players and the outer rim with the AI's, eventually separated by a gap
No reshape, that's just a pain.
* Patch level, I suppose J ?
I run J.
* Will it be run as PBEM or on Autohost?
PBEM would be easy... hell, I could do that.
* Turn interval?
36 / 48 hours once it gets going? With three-four human players, it would be easy to give a little extra time if needed, or generate early.
* Public score?
Not sure how to set it to any year OTHER than 2420, so... maybe put it to a vote? I like public scores.
* ...
...

99% of my Stars! experience is playing against two real-life buds (which doesn't work anymore, since Stars now INSISTS we all use the same serial code, which we really, really don't.) and single-player VS 15 Harder AI's.

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[Updated on: Thu, 20 July 2006 21:49]

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Crappicus wrote on Thu, 20 July 2006 19:09

* HW positions altered or left alone Left Alone. * Specific AIs or random Random * Galaxy reshape like a center area with human players and the outer rim with the AI's, eventually separated by a gap No reshape, that's just a pain. * Patch level, I suppose J ? I run J. * Will it be run as PBEM or on Autohost? PBEM would be easy... hell, I could do that. * Turn interval? 36 / 48 hours once it gets going? With three-four human players, it would be easy to give a little extra time if needed, or generate early. * Public score? Not sure how to set it to any year OTHER than 2420, so... maybe put it to a vote? I like public scores. * ... ... 99% of my Stars! experience is playing against two real-life buds (which doesn't work anymore, since Stars now INSISTS we all use the same serial code, which we really, really don't.) and single-player VS 15 Harder AI's.

If I may offer some advice:

-- Only the HE AI poses any challenge at all, with the AR AI posing a challenge only if it has plenty of space to grow and reach high tech. The PP AI is at best a nuisance unless at very close quarters. The rest of the AIs don't expand and don't usually build attack fleets.

-- If you want the AIs to be hard to beat, you'll need to allow them room to expand. 6 Expert AIs will fare better than 10 in most galaxies.

-- You might advertise the game as "Medium/Intermediate" difficulty, as any expert player can eat 16 expert, non-broken AIs in a huge-dense for breakfast. Alternatively, you can turn the game into a test ground for outlandish/weird/highly specialised race designs.

Good luck!!

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[Updated on: Mon, 24 July 2006 06:08] by Moderator

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m.a@stars wrote on Fri, 21 July 2006 10:02

If I may offer some advice: -- Only the HE AI poses any challenge at all, with the AR AI posing a challenge only if it has plenty of space to grow and reach high tech. The PP AI is at best a nuisance unless at very close quarters. The rest of the AIs don't expand and don't usually build attack fleets.

Don't know about this as I always use Random Enemies, but I've at least seen recently the SD AI expand... don't know if he'd attacked, he's been dead meat anyhow ) On the other hand, Crappicus wanted to play a large/huge dense/packed Universe, shouldn't that be enought for AR's?

Crappicus wrote on Thu, 20 July 2006 19:19

Also, I think I want to be either SS or IT.

ADG_Wraith wrote on Thu, 20 July 2006 02:30

I'm in... SS or WM would be best for me, maybe IS... whatever works.

I've got an IS race I'd like to give an attempt, if that's fine with ADG_Wraith?

Crappicus wrote on Fri, 21 July 2006 03:09

99% of my Stars! experience is playing against two real-life buds (which doesn't work anymore, since Stars now INSISTS we all use the same serial code, which we really, really don't.) and single-player VS 15 Harder AI's.

Even less experience against humans on my count I'm currently finishing my first game against humans, though with an amazing result )

For the setup, in that mentioned game (6 players + 2 AIs), I realized that there is some order in the way Stars distributes the players... Don't know the exact order, but the AIs were Nbr7 and 8, myself being 6. The result was, that the AI ended both at about 200ly - 250ly from my HW (HE and PP). Which was actually very fine in that game, as some players had enough problems even without any interference...

Public score: I do like it too, though not in Human vs human plays...
For the setup, it's just fine with me whatever you choose, just need the information for the race design. As for keeping the HW positions, this means to me that the race needs to be designed mainly as a standard race and not as a team play tuned race?

{Mod edit: fixed quote}

[Updated on: Mon, 24 July 2006 06:10] by Moderator

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tgellan wrote on Fri, 21 July 2006 10:39

but I've at least seen recently the SD AI expand... don't know if he'd attacked, he's been dead meat anyhow ) On the other hand, Crappicus wanted to play a large/huge dense/packed Universe, shouldn't that be enought for AR's?

Well, yeah, the SD and the SS AI *do* expand some... if you can call building a 25-planet empire in a Huge universe while everyone else builds 100+ planet empires "expanding"

The PP AI expands more, 50+ planet empires aren't unusual at all... but it relies too much in packets and their fleets suffer from mineral scarcity.

The HE and AR AIs OTOH, *overexpand*, i.e: they colonise more than they can defend early, but woe to you if you allow them to develop all those tiny outposts...

Even if "AI alliances" are allowed, not all AIs will automagically ally. And even if they do, the AR AI can be easily suffocated by overexpanding neighbors.

One thing to note is that the AIs can and will tech-trade under the right conditions, i.e: continued popdrop war, continued skirmishes or both, where none of them manage to get the upper hand, and when you attack them *poof* they ally and all have better tech than you.

Yeah, I know, too many AI-solo games!

PS: you want a nice challenge? setup a huge/dense with 16 players, don't allow *any kind* of alliances, either human or AI, and award victory to the race who kills more enemies. Pls note that allowing one AI (or one human) to kill a weaker AI is bad for your own score, so ...

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Crappicus wrote on Fri, 21 July 2006 22:29

Well, ok, if we've got interest, let organize some rules and start playing! I got's myself 2.7j, and I can generate turns if everyone sends them in to me. I just need to remember which AI names are which races...

Just in case, here's a listing of AI races:

http://starsautohost.org/sahforum/index.php?t=msg&th=260 3&rid=625&S=acb50b6b79a8718f1a40546b2c68053c&pl_ view=&start=0#msg_22571

Usenet newsgroup rec.games.computer.stars (aka rgcs) (aka home) also carries a lot of old posts on the matter.

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Hi,

Just did a small test over the weekend...

Normal size, highest density
6 random AI's, (med. instead of exp.)
Autogen. 20 years
Public Score
...

In 2450 I caught up with Res with the leading AI (PP, 2.), whose res are still exploding. Currently there are a few DD Beta fleets (size 5-10), mainly from the SS AI (3.) and very few from the PP. Due to surpise and stealth, the SS managed to pick 2 docks, now that I'm on guard, it's no big deal defending with range 2 beamers.

For the rest of the AI's, I haven't met them yet, but planet wise, there can't be any HE or AR. Whatever race they are, they really don't expand over a handfull of planets. The 20 year did hinder me far less than I'd expected, as I ended up with en10, and a HW crowding of colonists. A few turns later I got con4, scouts reporting, and colonizers on their way, I was able to export like mad... Still I should pick "low starting pop" even more with a 30 years gen...

So another question about the setup is, if the players will get a chance to define the queue on year 2400, or will it be set to mineral alchemy? Something that would be more a challenge is to reduce the "starting population" after that timewarp back to the level from year 2400... Maybe to hard?

I think I have to start another test, with all of the races (and set them to exp. as ment), timewarping 30 years, and doing mineral alchemy like hell, (hm there's a LRT that comes to mind...)

Another thing worth mentioning, even with setting them to alliance, I've seen the PP killing of AI planets with huge packages... and yes I had already war status with both AI's (was another game though)

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[Updated on: Mon, 24 July 2006 04:02]

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m.a@stars wrote on Fri, 21 July 2006 10:02

-- You might advertise the game as "Medium/Intermediate" difficulty, as any expert player can eat 16 expert, non-broken AIs in a huge-dense for breakfast.

Not sure how he's going to do that ... Take over mental control of the 16 AIs?

But you are right. Previous team game the theme of my team was the Stars! AI (see here) and I needed a list of AI ship names. I created a universe with some AIs and a WM OWW race for me. I set my race to factories/mines/defenses building and research lowest field ... updated SB design after getting some key techs and queued some missile DNs at some point ... Anyway, after 100s of years my world was still standing, there had been a lot of battles in orbit but the AI never won ...
Hm... I think the universe was a packed tiny ... so mabye too small for the 6 IIRC AIs ... though they had full tech in the end and still couldn't kill my one world ...

However in that team game the AI did win!!

mch

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Micha wrote on Mon, 24 July 2006 11:46

Anyway, after 100s of years my world was still standing, there had been a lot of battles in orbit but the AI never won ...

In my experience, the Expert HE AI can and will build ultrastation-busting fleets (without chaff or minesweepers, tho) at a scary pace once it's reached max tech and there's about 20 big AI planets focusing on your border.

Of course, a decent-sized minefield will greatly hurt all those AI fleets, and any kind of orbit defense (say, a half dozen BBs or nubians) will almost always win the day.

Even so, some times 5 or 6 groups of those deadly Capital Metamorphs (plus attendant B52s) will converge at once on your outpost and risk taking it...

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tgellan wrote on Mon, 24 July 2006 09:08

Another thing worth mentioning, even with setting them to alliance, I've seen the PP killing of AI planets with huge packages... and yes I had already war status with both AI's (was another game though)

Of course. Remember it says "AI alliances allowed" not "forced"

I've seen two mammoth HE AIs beating eachother all thru a Huge dense galaxy to the point when I finally managed to kill my AR and PP neighbors and was ready to attack the two HEs they were so mineral-depleted that even allying against me didn't save them.

I've also seen a monster AR AI and its HE neighbor suddenly ally to protect the last remaining colony ship of the PP AI I had almost killed off, to the point I had to battle and nearly destroy them both before reaching the last puny PP outpost that lone colony ship had founded after traversing half a huge galaxy. I still wonder how they found an uninhabited planet for their needs amidst two huge 3-i neighbors, or if somehow the planet was evacuated for them.

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Micha wrote on Mon, 24 July 2006 11:46

m.a@stars wrote on Fri, 21 July 2006 10:02 -- You might advertise the game as "Medium/Intermediate" difficulty, as any expert player can eat 16 expert, non-broken AIs in a huge-dense for breakfast. Not sure how he's going to do that ... Take over mental control of the 16 AIs?

Heh. Of course even the *expert* AIs should be ranked as "novice" at most.

As for the gritty business of actually cleansing a huge galaxy of them half-brained critters it is mostly a matter of *time* and basic strategy/tactics. And the more AIs there are the easier it gets.

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m.a@stars wrote on Tue, 25 July 2006 14:22

And the more AIs there are the easier it gets.

This started out as a minor change to the setup, but has somewhat grown, as I was typing this... So what do you think about this altered setup?

3-4 Human players
12-13 HE Expert AI's merged into one

This would require modding the files such that all these 12-13 AI HW's are all owned by only one AI... That way, the option about "allowing" the AI to ally with its kind becomes irrelevant. Of course there won't be any longer any tectrading wars , but having the HE resources from 12-13 HW under its control, that should be no matter with research...
As we are at modding the files, in order to kickstart the AI even further, one could increase its starting tec and/or setting the HW populations to an extrem value, like 500%+ per HW. Yet another improvement would be to max out factories, mines and minerals on these worlds... How much res would that give the AI? Of course I don't know the settings for the HE AI, but taking the values for the default JOAT humanoids, not considering that it should have OBRM...
10Res/10000 -> 500 on 100%
That should be about 1000 with heavy overpopulation from 500%
10/10/10 Factories -> 500
should give about 12 * 1500 = 18000 res the very first turn!!!
If that doesn't boost the AI, nothing does
I think that way, it would be a challenge, in fact I fear that way the AI could even become unstoppable...

Of course someone who knows how to setup the game in this way would be required...

Comments?

Ps: Imagine the very first turn of the AI, 500+ Minicolonizers running around

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That sounds like it would present a challange. Wow, I didnt even know you could merge several races into one giant computer race that pools all the resources, ships, research etc together!

(Just a general comment by the way Crappicus, I dont want in on this game cus only want 1 game at a time for me and Im in Diadochi Wars). Youve got enough players anyways!

[Updated on: Tue, 25 July 2006 11:44]

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I really like the idea of having a single AI start with 12+ HW. Or maybe have 2 AI (one AR, one HE) start with 6 each, although then there's the risk they would fight each other If you placed one in the east and one in the west, with the humans in the middle, there wouldn't be too much danger of that though...

I don't think kick starting 12 seperate AIs is going to help them that much - it's the issue of planets available per race that cripples them. 6 AIs all with big kick starts would do well though.

I definately prefer the 'One Monster AI, Multiple HWs' idea, with 'Sandwiched Between Two Massive Beasts' (game title?) coming in second. If you decide to do it this way, then I'm definately up for playing. An effectively 12x accelerated AI should be a nasty threat - we'd be out resourced and out teched for a long time, I think.



EDIT: BTW, I know a couple of people here that I'm pretty sure could and would mod the start for us to change ownership of the extra homeworlds correctly.

[Updated on: Tue, 25 July 2006 22:31]

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