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| Nubian battle duels |
Mon, 26 June 2006 15:02  |
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There's recently been some debate over in the academy about nubian design, but without any real conclusions being drawn.
So here's a challenge that might help us advance the state of the art in this area...
Two intermediate/advanced players fight a kind of duel, but without any economic stuff. I'll build a game for 2 players and auto-generate a load of turns until research is maxed out and both sides have tons of minerals.
Next, both players will be given a "budget" in resources and each type of minerals, and told to build a single fleet with that budget.
Once they've built their ships (and I've checked that they are within the budget), the two fleets head to a single point for one big battle.
Any takers?
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| Re: Nubian battle duels |
Mon, 26 June 2006 15:53  |
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Staz,
If you are willing to set it up, I have a better idea.
Set up the game for 4 races - each player makes their own OWW race using IT, JOAT, or CA. These are the only 3 PRT's that can do this kind of duel. Éach race must be created with a maximum AND minimum amount of resource points from the HW.
Generate 2000 years - everybody is maxed out in tech and minerals are extremely plentiful.
Give everyone a 10 year time to build a fleet.
If there are 4 players, the 2 'southern' ones will fight and the 2 'northern' ones will fight (any pairing will do). After the first kill phase is over, the 2 remaining players fight it out.
To win a 'phase, you'll also need to obliterate the opponent's world. However, like in chess, when all is lost then the loser simply lies his 'King' down if he so wishes. He/She doesn't have to play it out to the final blow.
NO race may colonize ANY planets - including the enemy HW's
Setup - tiny, sparse universe, acc BBS, PPS
Ptolemy
P.S. I'll play it
[Updated on: Mon, 26 June 2006 15:54]
Though we often ask how and why, we must also do to get the answers to the questions.Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Nubian battle duels |
Mon, 26 June 2006 16:59 |
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 iztok |
 | Commander |
Messages: 1206
Registered: April 2003
Location: Slovenia, Europe | |
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Hi!
| Ptolemy wrote on Mon, 26 June 2006 21:53 |
I have a better idea.
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IMO the best would be all players using the same predefined race, host generates final universe with it, and only then gives players access to races.
Host sets pairs of opponents, and if in 10 turns one player of that pair isn't eliminated, they fight a single all-out battle, and host decides who's the winner. All players scrap their fleets, only winners remain active.
Host repeats upper procedure until there's only one player remaining.
And he should also ban mineral packets. 
BR, Iztok
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| Re: Nubian battle duels |
Tue, 27 June 2006 14:52 |
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I don't particularly want to have players designing their own races for two reasons. First, a better designed race may win what is supposed to be a ship design contest. Second, we wouldn't be able to reuse the testbed repeatedly once I'd built it.
I have pretty much the same objection to the multi-player options, though I understand the value in allowing more than 2 races in the battle. However, I think we should try and understand the 1-on-1 scenarios first.
Granted, this wouldn't actually be much of a game, but that's not the point. The idea is purely to see how to make best use of a particular amount of resources/minerals.
Later on we could move to more complex scenarios.
If I go ahead as originally proposed, would I get any takers?
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| Re: Nubian battle duels |
Tue, 27 June 2006 15:05 |
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I suggest have multiple points of interest, eg each side gets several good greens, and gates to have some usefulness. Have 2 duels, switch sides after first duel so perfectly fair.
You may be able to find a game finished on autohost that will work (eg 2 sides relatively balanced if rest are made inactive), and you can use backup to go to certain year at start of each duel.
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| Re: Nubian battle duels |
Wed, 28 June 2006 00:57 |
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| Quote: |
In warfleet contest...
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Some warships are best at skirmish hit and runs, rather than single big showdown battle.
For example from early part of my current game, destroyer with 2 beta torps and battlespeed 1.25 held off much larger force of 1.00 battlespeed beamers. Turn after turn it took out a few % of their armour then disengaged, till they got tired of it and went home.
In big one on one battles, you don't get the same hit and run, bomber-killer, bomber-defender, cheap starbase/gate killer, etc dynamics. Yet in a real game these can be the warships that win the game.
[Updated on: Wed, 28 June 2006 01:02] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Nubian battle duels |
Wed, 28 June 2006 03:44 |
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| multilis wrote on Wed, 28 June 2006 14:57 |
| Quote: |
In warfleet contest...
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Some warships are best at skirmish hit and runs, rather than single big showdown battle.
For example from early part of my current game, destroyer with 2 beta torps and battlespeed 1.25 held off much larger force of 1.00 battlespeed beamers. Turn after turn it took out a few % of their armour then disengaged, till they got tired of it and went home.
In big one on one battles, you don't get the same hit and run, bomber-killer, bomber-defender, cheap starbase/gate killer, etc dynamics. Yet in a real game these can be the warships that win the game.
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True, but I don't think the purpose here is an all out war contest to discover the best strategist, but rather a contest with the aim to find great *mainline* ship designs. The original threads from which this idea sprung, were about requests for suggestions for the primary nub design, rather than for the various supporting roles.
A single all-out battle is actually well suited to that task.
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| Re: Nubian battle duels |
Wed, 28 June 2006 08:39 |
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| Staz wrote on Wed, 28 June 2006 22:20 |
Well, it seems that there is no interest in the original concept, but everyone has their view on how it should be changed.
I'll leave it to the community to decide which (if any) options should be pursued.
I guess it saves me a load of work 
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lol, as if the community will agree 
Your original game idea, unmodified, is quite elegant. Very pure, simple, and very quick to run and play. I suggest you go with that, and if anyone else wants to do run something more complex... Nobody is stopping them running a seperate concept alongside...
EDIT: I'd set it up in a 16 player universe. That way you can extend it to more players without needing to set it up again.
[Updated on: Wed, 28 June 2006 08:42] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Nubian battle duels |
Wed, 28 June 2006 17:09 |
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Well, I decided to build the testbed anyway.
I've got two 1WW JOATs with maxed out tech and no minerals, each producing just over 6k resources per year.
There is also a single host race: a 1WW WM that several hundred thousand KT of minerals.
What I propose is...
I'll drop 50,000kt Iro, 80,000kt Bor and 30,000kt Ger on each HW. Each player will then fill the queue with 20 turns of production (just over 120,000 resources) and I'll gen the 20 turns.
The players then assemble their fleet(s), and send them to a point in deep space where they do battle.
Therefore, each player submits only 2 turns; one to fill the production queue and one to dispatch their fleet.
Other details:-
Building mines is banned, although it won't make a lot of difference as mine settings are 5/15/5.
I've positioned a single ship for each of the 2 players in deep-space, so each player just sends their warfleet to meet those ships.
I'm happy to accept suggestions from the players for the mix of resources & minerals. If they can't agree, we'll use the values above.
The JOAT races have IFE but not NRSE, RS or BET.
The HWs are 51 ly apart.
With penscanning you should be able to see your opponent's fleets, but not the designs obviously, just before you commit to battle. It will be too late to build any ships though.
I won't have any ships from the host race at the battle, so starting positions will be for 2 races, not 3.
[Updated...]
Using "Route" orders to attack (or scout) before the appointed time is banned. To be on the safe side, players are banned from having any ships at any other homeworld. Hopefully none of this will be an issue as I'm sure players will stick to the spirit of the contest.
[Updated on: Thu, 29 June 2006 18:03] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Nubian battle duels |
Wed, 28 June 2006 20:13 |
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| PricklyPea |
 | Lieutenant |
Messages: 534
Registered: February 2005 | |
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| Staz wrote on Wed, 28 June 2006 17:09 |
Well, I decided to build the testbed anyway.
I've got two 1WW JOATs with maxed out tech and no minerals, each producing just over 6k resources per year.
There is also a single host race: a 1WW WM that several hundred thousand KT of minerals.
What I propose is...
I'll drop 50,000kt Iro, 80,000kt Bor and 30,000kt Ger on each HW. Each player will then fill the queue with 20 turns of production (just over 120,000 resources) and I'll gen the 20 turns.
The players then assemble their fleet(s), and send them to a point in deep space where they do battle.
Therefore, each player submits only 2 turns; one to fill the production queue and one to dispatch their fleet.
Other details:-
Building mines is banned, although it won't make a lot of difference as mine settings are 5/15/5.
I've positioned a single ship for each of the 2 players in deep-space, so each player just sends their warfleet to meet those ships.
I'm happy to accept suggestions from the players for the mix of resources & minerals. If they can't agree, we'll use the values above.
The JOAT races have IFE but not NRSE, RS or BET.
The HWs are 51 ly apart.
With penscanning you should be able to see your opponent's fleets, but not the designs obviously, just before you commit to battle. It will be too late to build any ships though.
I won't have any ships from the host race at the battle, so starting positions will be for 2 races, not 3.
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me me me! can i have a go?
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| Re: Nubian battle duels |
Thu, 29 June 2006 08:54 |
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| Kotk | 
| Commander |
Messages: 1227
Registered: May 2003 | |
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| Staz wrote on Thu, 29 June 2006 00:09 |
I'll drop 50,000kt Iro, 80,000kt Bor and 30,000kt Ger on each HW. Each player will then fill the queue with 20 turns of production (just over 120,000 resources) and I'll gen the 20 turns.
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The mineral situation say "you are clumsy novice, your race is bit wrongly balanced IT HP, you some time ago lost your doom BB fleet, but still somehow recovered to end game".
 Late game serious germ limit (more than twice less germ than bora) is odd limit thats why i say wrongly balanced HP. 
Then ... you got less iron than bora. So you built mainly missile fleet so far and no much bombers or beamers ... seems IT. 
Also you are clumsy, otherwise why your fleet is not around.
Anyway, the testbed seems too germanium limited there, plain nub beamers (for 120kr you get about 200-250 of these) usually cost over 30MT germ without computers or other oddities involved.  Scout chaff for 120kr costs 60MT/60MT/60mT.
I suggest 60MT/60MT/40MT minerals for a more realistic and balanced situation. 
[Updated on: Thu, 29 June 2006 09:05] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Nubian battle duels |
Thu, 29 June 2006 09:32 |
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| Quote: |
serious germ limit...IT
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Or they have been doing lots of bombing and rebuilding of factories, and fighting hard for init.
Some minerals may come from a dead foe, skilled foe has nasty habit of trying to destroy most useful mineral type before you wipe him out, but may not have time to dispose of bor.
In my last game, I captured mainly bor.
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| Re: Nubian battle duels |
Thu, 29 June 2006 13:02 |
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| Quote: |
One rarely catches skilled foe pants down like that.
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You suprise gain orbit over a core world and he only can build starbases which he loads with iron+germ sucking missiles. He may only have 1 turn notice to pull minerals/pop off other core worlds, and only have so many transports.
Your nearest gate may be 2+ turns away for bringing in enough bombers, you are stretched thin pulling off risky attack and trying to keep orbit over his worlds. Afterwards there are lots of factories to rebuild. Possible you need to sacrifice (not defend well) a few of your own worlds to win mid game war.
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| Re: Nubian battle duels |
Thu, 29 June 2006 17:56 |
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Lots to answer here...
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me me me! can i have a go?
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Yep, of course. Now we need one more.
| Quote: |
I suggest 60MT/60MT/40MT minerals for a more realistic and balanced situation.
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I've always ended up with more bor than iro; maybe that's novice play, but I've always found it difficult to spend enough boranium as I hit resource limits first. Spending iro is easy.
Anyway, as I mentioned I'll let the players set the mineral levels if they can reach agreement.
| Quote: |
Might want to make a 'no routing' rule
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Good point, but I'd hope that both players would understand the point of this excercise.
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| Re: Nubian battle duels |
Fri, 30 June 2006 04:34 |
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| PricklyPea wrote on Fri, 30 June 2006 00:57 |
once you've set up the game (with several different stock races etc.) you could re-run the game quite easily without having to do the initial regen. i guess starting with max minerals or ARM for races could give unlimited minerals for use.
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The game is set up already and I can change the mineral mix as required. The "player" races have no minerals, the "host" race has several hundred thousand kt of each, and a big fleet of freighters. If I need more minerals than this (for really big battles), I'll just force gen another few hundred turns.
However, the game as it stands can support battles of several hundred nubs per side, and I'm not aware of a significant difference between 200 nub battles and 2000 nub battles.
If this initial test works OK I can build another test that has more race designs. Alternatively we can use the BattleSim and manually verify the resource/mineral limitations.
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