Sr.Seven wrote on Wed, 05 April 2006 16:04

1x Rogue w RB, 98% Cloaked, possibly lightly armed.

Just my opinion... you should never arm the "king piece". It will do stupid things if you do You want it to "live" and the period during which it would be effective in combat is very short.

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<snip> I would not include a fuel ship in the initial alotment only because they are fairly easy to kill and are a cheap source of con tech.

Tech is going to be there to be had by killing pirate ships since they are suppose to have an "edge". I'd suggest that the pirate ships don't want to be killed though and stealth helps with that You worry about this tech thing a bit much. You had a nice little layout of ships there, but I think they should have a few more utility ships (large freighters+SFX and maybe a few more privateers) and even fighters, perhaps a variety of designs so they can't be "stacked" to take down early stations without trading them in and taking a penalty. Like say 10 DDs in 5 different configurations, mostly shieldless beamers.

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I would pass out a few for free when the players reach con6.

Which can happen in 2410? 2405? Some people (-F IS comes to mind) go for LFs right out of the gate. I think having some fuel ships would help the pirates with the rather large logistical problem of taking from the core areas back to their stash (though I probably wouldn't stash one kt the first 20-30 years... spend every last one so I can claim more)

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And on a thematic note, what about no AccBBS or yes SlowTech (or both) to prolong the length of the pre-BB age?

I don't think non-AccBBS is going to help either side, just slows down empire growth. Slow tech might be useful, but it will make tech coming from pirates very attractive and it would put the -F at a disadvantage I think. The settings should probably stay the same. Consider the empires have to deal with 1) lower mine settings and 2) out numbered by pirates 2-1. So either you pay them off or prepare to deal with them, both of which will slow you down.

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An Update
Empires:
Marduk
Mark
Sr Seven (99%)
Sergey (until he dies )
Pirates:
hobbyman=Kelzar?
Yoey
EDog
Coyote
Ptolemy
BackBlast

Kelzar: not sure why I wasn't listed on this last update
Sorry about that, yours is the email that starts hobbyman@...?

GreyMatter: But damn it, Gible - you are making this even more interesting ! Now I want to be an Empire... but I cant play an Empire and a Pirate
Well hurry up and decide...there's only one Empire slot left!
(tho I only have 1 racefile atm...not disclosing who for obvious reasons)
I am still advocating "enemy" relations between Empires<->Pirates though...
Noted.
Will the Pirates be allowed to start lootings right from the start or there will be a 10-20 turn ban on robbing HWs/colonies ?
How should I say this....Sic 'em boys!
Could you specify what fleet composition/designs will the pirates have at the start ?
Yes. I could. But I won't. I will however point out that pirates will be given a set of starting ships and minerals(cash)...keeps things simple from my end and reduces complaints about my (lack of) design skill I'm happy to hear suggestions for designs tho, both for the Jolly Roger and for its support/defense ships.

Sr Seven: I think random events need to remain on. The MT's presence guarantees lots of loaded empire freighters.
Hell yes...The great MT Robbery anyone? Not to mention the race for comet struck worlds.

Backblast: at least until ultra cloaks are reasonably priced
They'll be reasonably priced from 2400...like all SS tech parts except the RB

[Updated on: Thu, 06 April 2006 04:01]

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Marduk wrote on Thu, 06 April 2006 18:36

... Also bear in mind that orbitals don't help you keep your minerals from being stolen. The RB ship never has to enter weapon range. That means you need ships that are both fast enough to catch it and powerful enough to destroy it. If I remember correctly, destroying the freighters doesn't help. The RB will still pull up the minerals as ordered in a waypoint 1 task even if they can't go anywhere. Wiping out the RB is the only way to protect yourself. That means you have to have manuever jets and a hull that can use them - DD maybe, but more likely cruiser.

That is exactly why I asked the questions about possible looting ban on HWs or starting Pirate's fleet/composition.

At this moment it looks like if the Pirates have an RB ship (and no matter what other ships) at the start, then they can discover Empire HW within the first 10-12 turns and Gible (err.. God ) help that Empire in this case...


Perhaps God should give Empires a fast CC at the start - which could catch and destroy the RB ?

[Updated on: Thu, 06 April 2006 19:35]

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[Updated on: Thu, 06 April 2006 20:41]

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Rediculous! An empire can't be defeated by a small limited military with no ground troops or bombers even if it is (and I advocate it should be) sizeable. Sure, they might have their home world stocks stolen on a risky raid, they might lose some convoys or have the minerals stolen from them. This does *NOT* defeat an empire. It's mearly an inconvenience (unless your AR losing your begining stocks, then you're doomed).

Those minerals aren't nearly as important (other than possibly germ - by the time they can get there, you'll still have free germ?) than seems to be claimed here, besides, an empire can still build with what they mine even if they are being "looted" constantly. it does not halt them, defeat them, or any such things. I, for one, can use a sizable chunk of minerals every year in the queue to make it awefully slim pickings for a looter, and make it more dangerous of an affair besides You can always fill the queue with freighters.

You also vastly underestimate what the empires (especially -F) will have, or be capable of having, once the pirates scout the place out and survey the land.

One last point, even a fast Jolly Roger in a rogue or galleon hull will be slowed down by cargo. I guess it's not so for a DD or CC, but regardless, even someone with straight zero tech across the board can kill freighters that are loaded down with loot, and that doesn't make the pirate's raid very profitable, does it now? No freighters, no loot.

Use your imagination, why not give a pirate your stock *boranium* for techonology or paid protection with hints of future contracts? Maybe I should be an empire just to show you how it's done

[Updated on: Thu, 06 April 2006 22:23]

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BackBlast wrote on Thu, 06 April 2006 21:46

Rediculous! An empire can't be defeated by a small limited military with no ground troops or bombers even if it is (and I advocate it should be) sizeable.

You mean EVENTUALLY sizeable or immediately sizeable? I'd agree that a successful pirate might well build quite the armada. In fact, I sincerely hope that this happens. I don't think they should start out so powerful that they need not fear even an imperial HW.

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Sure, they might have their home world stocks stolen on a risky raid,

The key word here needs to be risky.

I am assuming you want STRONG escorts early from your comments? Maybe a Jolly Rojer with 2.5 battle speed and a Delta Cruiser or 2? Or just Bazookas? Let's assume that you are using chicken/retreat orders so the SB doesnt play. Tell me, what kind of force would a HW need to have available to make such a raid "risky"?

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they might lose some convoys or have the minerals stolen from them.

I hope so. Typically so many of these early pop and mineral shipments do not have armed escort. A pirate should be able to find pickings here and at young defenseless colonies.

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an empire can still build with what they mine even if they are being "looted" constantly. it does not halt them, defeat them, or any such things. I, for one, can use a sizable chunk of minerals every year in the queue to make it awefully slim pickings for a looter, and make it more dangerous of an affair besides You can always fill the queue with freighters.

Sure you can. But what you have here is a pirate directly challenging the strength of the core world of an empire... and winning.

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You also vastly underestimate what the empires (especially -F)

F*** the -f. 80* of the empires will be +f by rule. So you this has to work right for ESPECIALLY the +F.

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will have, or be capable of having, once the pirates scout the place out and survey the land.

Even if they only start with a single (RB) Penscan, I expect that all of the HWs will have been discovered and potentially visited by 2410. Tell me, what would an x/5/x (mines) HP have available by then?

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One last point, even a fast Jolly Roger in a rogue or galleon hull will be slowed down by cargo.

Yes. Next turn. And by then it will have transfered what it stole to one of those LFs you want. So it won't be slowed unless it chooses to be.

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I guess it's not so for a DD or CC,

Nope. And you said pirates need to start with these?

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but regardless, even someone with straight zero tech across the board can kill freighters that are loaded down with loot, and that doesn't make the pirate's raid very profitable, does it now? No freighters, no loot.

The interceptors were killed by your Delta CGs. Who is going to hunt pirate freighters? Other Pirates? Hmm. . . Certainly not empires.

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Use your imagination, why not give a pirate your stock *boranium* for techonology or paid protection with hints of future contracts?

That makes sense 20-30 years in for both groups. If a pirate can just take what he wants in 2410, why would he negotiate for a future contract?

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Maybe I should be an empire just to show you how it's done

Maybe you should. We need another imperial.



-Sr.Seven

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I really shouldn't spend the time with this since you really only see failure for yourself. But I'll try and elaborate on what I attempted to communicate.

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The key word here needs to be risky. I am assuming you want STRONG escorts early from your comments? Maybe a Jolly Rojer with 2.5 battle speed and a Delta Cruiser or 2? Or just Bazookas? Let's assume that you are using chicken/retreat orders so the SB doesnt play. Tell me, what kind of force would a HW need to have available to make such a raid "risky"?

10 DDs with even 1 1/4th movement. That would make me think twice as a pirate. Even so, you can build this in one year or maybe two even in 240x. Remember, you don't have to kill the king piece, just the slow pokey freighters. If the king piece tries to run with the loot, you can give chase. Cloak is effectively removed once the ship is exposed. Until he can escape your persuit.

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I hope so. Typically so many of these early pop and mineral shipments do not have armed escort. A pirate should be able to find pickings here and at young defenseless colonies.

Eh, I never send minerals with my initial colonies unless I'm IT or have some other goal in mind. I usually let them fend for themselves. So my convoys would not be very good pickings.. Now blowing them up for scrap is what I suspect will happen.

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Sure you can. But what you have here is a pirate directly challenging the strength of the core world of an empire... and winning.

Umm... not directly challenging the strength, they aren't shooting down filled out starbases or anything unless they have help..

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F*** the -f. 80* of the empires will be +f by rule. So you this has to work right for ESPECIALLY the +F.

Yeah, I don't too much care for the -f/+f rules/micromanagement of race types. -F is fun to play but it's not how you win a game, even this game, IMHO.

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Even if they only start with a single (RB) Penscan, I expect that all of the HWs will have been discovered and potentially visited by 2410. Tell me, what would an x/5/x (mines) HP have available by then?

HP? Are you joking? With x/5/x mines? You built your race to have nothing, nobody can wave their magic wand and save you lol. Here's a tip, go with fairly stock factories 10/9-8/12 ish give or take, throw in 10/3/10 mines (not the best but adaquate, you'll suplement with remotes later), and act more like a -F at the beginning, build your factories when convenient (like, say, whenever you are not paranoid or you have too much germ laying about) but don't concentrate on them like an HP might. Nuking the factories really doesn't yield that many points and it's usually mostly dumped into marginal tech fields anyway.

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Nope. And you said pirates need to start with these?

I advocated a handful of DDs, yes. Gible's idea of a couple ships and cash is much superior.

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Quote: but regardless, even someone with straight zero tech across the board can kill freighters that are loaded down with loot, and that doesn't make the pirate's raid very profitable, does it now? No freighters, no loot. The interceptors were killed by your Delta CGs. Who is going to hunt pirate freighters? Other Pirates? Hmm. . . Certainly not empires.

Let's get real here. Pirates are not going to come out of the gate capable of taking out a decked out space station without taking some serious risk. Which is basically what you're saying here if you think they can win an engagement at the HW. Loss of the majority of his fleet to take your HW orbit is unacceptable, if he can do it at all. A pirate's investment is in his ships, and they must produce returns. He can't take huge risks unless his back is against the wall and he's falling behind the leaders and needs to pull an ace, which he certainly isn't out of the gate. I think you'll find most pirates will be quite clever, even daring, but always careful, *very* careful. Yeah, someone might stage a HW raid but it'll be in-*snatch*-and-RUN RUN RUN!

As a side note... I have, of course, considered hunting other pirates, who do you think has all the loot?!? Besides, they're my competators! I'd be unlikely to attempt a HW snag right off, unless perhaps I know there are *no* defensive ships in orbit or nearby. I don't need a "oh *#?#?%! he's a WM!" and eat massive losses if not flat out lose right then and there. So built at least a token defensive deturrent and be wary if it gets probed for designs.

We'll have to have a news wire on this game to hear of the exploits and feats, it'll be great!

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That makes sense 20-30 years in for both groups. If a pirate can just take what he wants in 2410, why would he negotiate for a future contract?

I disagree with your premise and I assume you have your HP in mind, so further discussion down this line of thought is really pointless. I find that most players in most games are 1) agreeable and 2) willing to do low-risk profitable ventures. You can quite relyably count on this IMHO.

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Quote: Maybe I should be an empire just to show you how it's done Maybe you should. We need another imperial.

Alas, I have not the time for proper pop management... but I don't mind flying ships around

You might find that some pirates are more into the business end of things than the looting. Some will loot and run for the adrenaline rush, or be *highered* by your enemy to loot you and run . It's going to be a hoot. I look forward to looting your worlds, errr trading, yes, yes... My empty space for your iron and germ...

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BackBlast wrote on Thu, 06 April 2006 21:46

Rediculous! An empire can't be defeated by a small limited military with no ground troops or bombers even if it is (and I advocate it should be) sizeable. Sure, they might have their home world stocks stolen on a risky raid, they might lose some convoys or have the minerals stolen from them. This does *NOT* defeat an empire. It's mearly an inconvenience (unless your AR losing your begining stocks, then you're doomed).

We aren't talking about a small limited military. We're talking about a military force more powerful than an empire can have and the ability to get even better reinforcements. When the pirates take out the orbital, which they will if they have cruisers or a BB, the planet can't build any ships. A space station is expensive - by the time it's complete, and probably just destroyed again, the reinforcements will have shown up.

And who says the pirates won't have bombers? I'd be inclined to buy a couple of small ones for purging starter colonies - helps encourage the empire to send another colony fleet that you can blow up for more minerals.

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Those minerals aren't nearly as important (other than possibly germ - by the time they can get there, you'll still have free germ?) than seems to be claimed here, besides, an empire can still build with what they mine even if they are being "looted" constantly. it does not halt them, defeat them, or any such things. I, for one, can use a sizable chunk of minerals every year in the queue to make it awefully slim pickings for a looter, and make it more dangerous of an affair besides You can always fill the queue with freighters.

Actually, you can't use that much of your minerals unless your build queue costs line up well with your mining rates and resources. Build progress is based on the limiting factor. If you have all the minerals needed to build a ship but only half the resources, you will only spend half the minerals and the rest will sit there. Or if you have one-tenth the G, you'll also only spend one-tenth the resources and one-tenth the I and B.

This is one place serious micromanagers really shine. I don't go that far, I just find it annoying when I fail to get a tech level when I thought I was going to because I didn't have quite enough ironium to build a scout and left it plugging the build queue (and consequently blocked all the resources that would otherwise have gone into research).

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You also vastly underestimate what the empires (especially -F) will have, or be capable of having, once the pirates scout the place out and survey the land.

Why would they wait until they've got a complete survey to attack an empire if they start with a huge advantage? They can keep scouting while their combat ships and transports stay at their new home. They don't have to worry about the victim making any ships to fight them until an orbital goes up, and it would take several years to build up an orbital that can defeat a BB. If you see an HW with defenses you can take without too much trouble, are you going to attack it or wait until you can't anymore?

I'm expecting pirates who have BBs to either leave the transports out of the fight that destroys the orbital or have some sort of freighter chaff. Cargo doesn't affect battleboard attractiveness after all.

I think I have a good grasp on what an empire is capable of having. Next to nothing in 2410. Yak frigates with Wolverine shields is about the limit or maybe Phaser Bazooka DDs, and the resource cost of that research means there will be very few of them. If the pirates have BBs in 2420, that's fine. Given an average hab draw around the HW I could have some Bear shield cruisers with Colloidals by that time, so it won't be a complete mismatch. But the pirates will be on us almost from the start. I don't think even a OWW can manage Bear/Colloidal CCs by 2407.

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Use your imagination, why not give a pirate your stock *boranium* for techonology or paid protection with hints of future contracts? Maybe I should be an empire just to show you how it's done

No sensible pirate would accept a deal like that when he could easily just take a lot more than I was offering. And yes, please do be an empire. Then start thinking about what you'll have around if a pirate gets lucky and finds you right away. In 2405, will your space station be able to fight off even a single Beta CC? If it can, will you have any ships available to chase the Beta-armed rogues that will be stealing a lot more minerals than a single Beta CC costs the pirate?

Ptolemy wrote on Fri, 07 April 2006 00:10

Seems to me that part of the idea here is for Empires to be able to have hired pirates. OK - I'll certainly hire out to Empire X -go haead other pirates and drop on in to the Empire X HW - there you will find me providing my services and shooting down your ships.....

Be able to have hired pirates, not be required to. And what's in it for you, fighting another fleet more or less equal to yours? You'll end up with next to nothing besides your pay, and may well end up dead. The other pirate will at least have the excuse of not seeing you there, so his suicidal attack is more reasonable than your suicidal defense.

Empires won't have enough to spare to be worthwhile employers until they start to become empires. One system trying to fund expansion doesn't make for a generous paymaster. If they promise you later payments for your help now, well, promises don't buy any ships. Pirates are so easily replaced that there is no practical incentive (as an honorable person myself, I can assure you it is in no way practical) to follow through on a bargain once the empire has what it wants.

Some countries that wouldn't dream of breaking an agreement with another country also wouldn't dream of keeping an agreement with a dirty, treacherous pirate. They *knew* the pirate would betray them later, that's just the way pirates are. Born traitors, the poor sods. Their humours are out of balance. Sad, really.

Many years ago, I read the journal of an English governor who dealt with pirates. Very interesting stuff, basically said pirates were very useful and very dangerous, and no matter how useful they were if you got the chance to 'invite them to a gallows dance' (lovely phrase, isn't it?) you'd better take it. This from a man who routinely hired pirates to attack Spanish ships. He evidently had no lack of pirates willing to work for him anyway.

And from the pirate's perspective, if you want an early edge you can't beat looting a homeworld ASAP. If you can get in before they can put up a serious defense against you, you'll be able to afford what amounts to a huge fleet for the time. Even if you lose most of your fighting ships, your new ones will be higher tech than those you lost. You can go to the next HW you've scouted out and more or less do it again. You may end up just looting and running without fighting, but still good for you. By that time the remaining HWs are either mineral poor or defending themselves reasonably well, so you start to hit the other pirates for what you can get.

If you can get enough of an edge over the other pirates at this point, you can keep them from accomplishing much against the empires. That means they'll continue to be weak, and you can start exterminating all you can find - invest your 2nd HW winnings in a few good scanner ships and keep cruising around the empires and the PC worlds, you'll find a few. Since the only victory you can win is by being the chief pirate you don't really care what the empires are doing to each other. If the other pirates start working for empires, they're that much easier to find.

BackBlast wrote on Fri, 07 April 2006 00:42

Remember, you don't have to kill the king piece, just the slow pokey freighters.

And how do you manage that? Possibly your ships were destroyed the turn before, and in any case the shielded and missile-armed transports aren't the attractive targets. Armed privateers and rogues aren't subject to 'kill unarmed' or 'kill transports' orders. That, I suppose, is one argument in favor of giving the pirates freighters. But if you can choose some of your ships, why would you choose freighters that you believe are especially vulnerable?

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Umm... not directly challenging the strength, they aren't shooting down filled out starbases or anything unless they have help.

Starbases filled out with moleskin shields and X-ray lasers aren't going to stop a BB. A BB has four times the armor of a space station. Given that it also has better shields, better weapons and better armor available, it's going to win. If the empire in question is building factories, the BB may even get to shoot first.

If you are advocating some DDs to start and no rogues or privateers, that I wouldn't have a problem with. If a force like that hits my HW (aside from an attack in 2405 or so), I have allowed it to happen. Whether it's through some mistake or rampant stupidity, if I can't defend against a fleet like that at my HW it is clearly going to be my fault.

If the pirates have a couple CCs or a BB, there is no defense against them at the start. If the pirates have armed rogues or privateers for transports, there is no way to stop them from looting your HW. Higher tech beats greater numbers. With a near-HP HG race I attacked and destroyed a neighboring -f WM. He kept building armored(?) Yak DDs (with FM engines), had dozens of them. I sent out a small stack of shielded Bazooka DDs (with Alpha-8 engines and a jet) and obliterated him. His HW became my vacation home in the early 20s, and the only reason he lingered into the 40s was my limited amount of bombers and population.

When we started fighting in 2412, his DDs outnumbered my then-lousy DDs. By attacking him, I kept him from attacking my worlds before I could research and build worthwhile ships. When I sent my first stack of the good ships against him, he outnumbered them by about 10 to 1. With an advantage of 3 Energy, 2 Weapon and 5 Prop I didn't lose a single ship. Granted, if he hadn't armored his DDs he'd have won - but he'd still have lost more than I did.

This fight was very much in my mind when I started worrying about what pirates would start with. That the pirates generally have a tech edge doesn't bother me. They need it since they won't have giant fleets. But a tech edge at the beginning counts for a lot more than the same difference will later.

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An Update
I have one week of school left this term before a two week break(and I'll be away the first weekend camping ) I'd like to sort all the start-up stuff out during those two weeks (15 Apr- 30 Apr) if possible. Wumpus has very kindly agreed to help speed this up, so buy him a beer when he's next in your neighbourhood

Calling one Empire! Wanted *this week*!
Calling all rouges, buinessmen and lawyers! Your dreams of getting revenge and sticking it to the man can be real!
Please PMor email me with you prefered Pirate race name...something that:
a) will fit into the race name field
b) you won't mind someone else having after you die

Empires:
Marduk
Mark
Sr Seven
Sergey

Pirates:
hobbyman=Kelzar?
Yoey
EDog
Coyote
Ptolemy
BackBlast


On starting ships...
Ptolemy: Do we get to choose our own Jolly Roger design?
Sort of. You'll be given an initial Jolly Roger with your starting ships and some cash. You're free to upgrade the JR with this cash if you wish. I think I'll need to publish a hull/parts pricelist so pirates can judge whether of not they can afford soething without spending 10 years going back and forth with designs and prices...as soon as the empire races are in. In a private game forum I think.

I quite like Sr Seven's designs, tho some of the items are way to high tech for starting ships.

When proposing designs for starting ships, keep these things in mind...
1) They will also be based on the starting "pirate tech" - iow roughly what the empires start with. I'm asuming JoaT tech myself until the actual "pirate tech" is calculated.
2) They will be accompanied by some cash - approximately enough to rebuild(rebuy) the starting fleet 1-2 times.
3) Short of a very large, precisely timed and positioned comet strike, CC's or BB's will be way too expensive for quite some time.
4) Taking out a starting starbase is very unlikely to be affordable without several pirates joining forces.

GreyMatter: 3. Dont allow to rebuild JR-ship until 2420
rebuild? hehe...no rebuilds...trade-in and upgrade yes, but no rebuilds...you lose it...you died. Delete your other ships and find another pirate player. Of course you are allowed to have another go...but if being a pirate is as popular as I hope it'll be, you might have to wait at the end of the queue for awhile.

[Updated on: Sat, 08 April 2006 00:16]

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gible wrote on Fri, 07 April 2006 03:27

An Update I have one week of school left this term before a two week break(and I'll be away the first weekend camping ) I'd like to sort all the start-up stuff out during those two weeks (15 Apr- 30 Apr) if possible. Wumpus has very kindly agreed to help speed this up, so buy him a beer when he's next in your neighbourhood

I'm just tweaking my race at this point, so it's not long now. Well, tweaking and re-learning remote mining. It's been a long time since I first gave in to the dark side (OBRM), and I have seldom looked back until now.

Many thanks to the excellent Wumpus. I have vague recollections of oft-times hunting the Wumpus - though in the low resolution of those days it is perhaps hard to tell. Something about him bribing you to go away if you caught up to him. He must have been an empire, but I don't remember being a pirate myself. Those Mechtrons, now... those were some pirates!

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1) They will also be based on the starting "pirate tech" - iow roughly what the empires start with. I'm asuming JoaT tech myself until the actual "pirate tech" is calculated. 2) They will be accompanied by some cash - approximately enough to rebuild(rebuy) the starting fleet 1-2 times. 3) Short of a very large, precisely timed and positioned comet strike, CC's or BB's will be way too expensive for quite some time. 4) Taking out a starting starbase is very unlikely to be affordable without several pirates joining forces.

Yay! Yay! Yay! Hooray! I'm feeling much better now!

In my vision, pirates should be weak enough to fear empires, and strong enough that an empire wouldn't want to piss off four or five. Even two or three teaming up on an empire would be anywhere from a major hassle to a major problem. And giving them enough money to buy a replacement fleet or two will help make them bolder with their starting ships. Grab what they can with the beginner toys and wait for tech to rise a bit and become more stable before they go on a shopping spree. Just remember that the travel times from the showrooms to the garage mean that as tech levels rise, you should anticipate what they'll be in the next year or two.

Remember, it is always important to keep your swash buckled.

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Bump!

Shameless plug for one more empire race, and as many pirates as want to apply.

So far...
Empires:
Marduk
Mark
Sr Seven
Sergey

Pirates:
Kelzar
Yoey
EDog
Coyote
Ptolemy

Empire applicants please check the first post for race restricitons. Pirate players need not supply a race file, but instead a pirate race name(unless you want to risk being Pinkbeard ) and a preference for RS or not

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