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I agree completely.

I can see one tiny benefit of IFE in the TWW games - it's a cheap, fairly efficient engine for slow missile ships. I wouldn't take it myself though, in such a game.

I'll happily expand with the QJ5 engine. Sure, building all those boosters is relatively expensive, but the RW points saved give you a long term benefit, unlike IFE whose advantage is mostly spent by the time you hit prop 9. Spend the points gained carefully though

Another PRT that live happily without IFE is IS, thanks to the cheap, low-tech, Fuel Xport hull.

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[Updated on: Tue, 14 March 2006 10:46]

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I also love IFE-less idea, because on success the points acquired give some "edge"! HE does not count however ... who suggests HE with IFE anyway?
Being IFE-less is often quite MM heavy compared to spamming everything green with STD FM privs ... so lets then think the alternatives...

Propulsions cheapness? Not sure. At tech below P9 only HEs Settler Delight and FM can really fly warp 9. If you dont have these then transport with what you have. Radiation-immune IT has most interesting "solution" (at no NRSE + CE) but it is also far from good at high speeds. P9 is early tech for no one (whatever propulsion tech), borders are quarded by it.
Noob note: LH6 is about as good as QJ5 over warp 6 but heavier and more expensive.

More boosting? Sure! Fuel is free, problem is trucking it. Go as fast you can of course, but low iron conc at HW may make you stop with described "lots of privateers" plan. If PRT got Fuel Transport or Mini Mine Layer hulls then these are fine fuel boosters (but do no wonders).
Noob note: Booster without fuel is quite useless, wtf you merged it to fleet? Split it off and send to acquire some.

Better hulls? Possibly. Sprinting for LF tech early enough is possible for a factoryless or AR races in games without slow tech. Additional effect that Dock is 16% cheaper.
Noob note: LF has more fuel than SFX and costs less ironium than privateer.

More fuel sources? Sure! Most of IFE-lesses MUST take ISB. Warp7 (achievable with QJ5 and DLL7) is semi-liveable early speed with ISB. Get there bit later, however can defend it cheaper and better. ISB makes you more desirable ally early (easier to intersettle) and less desirable enemy (defense orbitals and forces are cheaper). The cost that you did pay for bigger expansion fleet is rewarded when others got to build stations but one with ISB can cope with docks mostly.

Smaller distances to travel? Possibly. Being IFE-less is rather risky in some galaxy densities. Even Clumped Dense got often big voids between planets. Wide hab that Marduk mentioned here helps race actually to have covering network of fuel docks simpler. It is narrow hab with what distances between habitable planets may be too big to colony-hop without IFE.

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Quote:

At tech below P9 only HEs Settler Delight and FM can really fly warp 9

DLL 7, and early ram scoops are better than QJ5, the Prop8 ramscoop is in same league as fuel mizer... a bit more fuel at warp 9 and more expensive, but much less at 8 and better battle speed, and often top speed includes some steps at warp 8. Faster ramscoops can also generate fuel better (see movement section of Posey's spreadsheet). Prop 5 helps for 100/250 gates, which work nice with privateers.

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low iron conc at HW may make you stop with described "lots of privateers" plan.

Rarely will be issue for me (unless AR). Consider that lots of privateers is often combined with one or more of my other suggestions.

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Sprinting for LF

Downside is more germ, heavy compared to privateer for small loads or gating 100/250. SFX is mineral lean and generates fuel, so I am bigger fan of it for the warp 9 long range stuff (drop some down to warp 5-7 farther away along path for future privateer runs).

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Most of IFE-lesses MUST take ISB.

I like ISB but I disagree. Alternatives include more/cheaper factories and mines and some of suggested alternatives. IT has easier time with gates, privateer can transport fuel through such.

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HE does not count however

Tell that to mlaub. His low growth HE's have lots of points and I guess he likes the fuel mizer for warships and bit of savings on some transports.

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I put it on my LFs, my SFXs, my recon units, my minelayers, and even my bombers

You lose out on many nice ramscoops, SFX, recon and minelayers can work fine with regular cheapo engines. LF of course loves good engines, one place where IS10 actually can be a boost as first warp 10 transports (who cares how much they cost).

...

In my current game (non-acc bbs, medium normal), I am moving pop faster than some of the IFE guys and they don't see any fuel mizers on my ships. I had no problems with true warp 9 right from the beginning to the strategic edges of my space.

[Updated on: Tue, 14 March 2006 13:36]

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Quote:

Quote: At tech below P9 only HEs Settler Delight and FM can really fly warp 9 DLL 7, and early ram scoops are better than QJ5,

Where did i talk of QJ5 in that quote?

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the Prop8 ramscoop is in same league as fuel mizer...

What year you had prop 8 in game and how long after then it took to prop 9. Just curious since you call it "early" engine. Having it early happens very rarely with me.

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Quote: low iron conc at HW may make you stop with described "lots of privateers" plan. Rarely will be issue for me (unless AR).

See we agree. "Rarely" = "may". 4 privateers per turn. ~300 ironium? Sounds like 1000 mines operated at 30 conc world. 30 conc iron happens far more often with me than SGFS early. So i dont think its not worth mentioning.

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Quote: Sprinting for LF Downside is more germ, heavy compared to privateer for small loads or gating 100/250.

I think i said clear that only for AR and factoryless its Possible to sprint for LF? Neither cares much about germ. So your downside is void there. For most other races propulsion and construction above 5 is dream for third decade ... so sure they got to stick with your QJ5 or DLL7 privateers. Even RHRS is quite special case.

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I like ISB but I disagree. Alternatives include ... some of suggested alternatives.

You mean particular case of IT again? Thats why i said Most instead of all. I also never have had IFE with IT. ISB and UR are also not needed.

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Tell that to mlaub.

mlaub never claimed being expert race designer. For 4% HE ... IFE is not so bad idea. 4% HE itself is not maybe best HE ... that we figured out with duel i remember.

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[Updated on: Tue, 14 March 2006 16:15]

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Kotk wrote on Tue, 14 March 2006 13:53

Quote: Tell that to mlaub. mlaub never claimed being expert race designer.

Correct. There are probably newbies that design better races than I do. If I ever figure that part out...look out.

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For 4% HE ... IFE is not so bad idea.

I use it as a early war hedge on the 4%. Plus, it is almost a must if you can afford it, IMO, for chaff. No gates is a real issue, and the IFE plus FM helps when you just can't stop the fleet to fuel up. 4% HE has those points to burn.

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4% HE itself is not maybe best HE ... that we figured out with duel i remember.

Yep. There is usually some subjectivity to race design, and what is considered "better", however the results of Kotk's 5% vs my 4% was obvious. His design was clearly better, apples to apples.

-Matt

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Quote:

Quote: propulsion and construction above 5 is dream for third decade If you start with all techs at 0 and focus only on one cheap tech, it takes 1230 resources to reach level 7.

Dont i know? What year it was then your non -f non AR made 0 0 5 7 0 0 from 0 0 0 0 0 0?

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I listed 3 downsides, 2 of which fit the mentioned AR and -f.

Why? 5% losses of overgating? Is it worth to mention compared to 300% iron cost? Small loads... i seem to have big enough loads early enough with 16% growth & LSP AR, nothing to talk of 19% growth -F. LF is not first decade thing anyway so both have some med freighters around for small loads.

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Quote: You mean particular case of IT again? If you read my original post, IT is barely mentioned. I can move pop at warp 9 with any PRT early.

And if you read your original post then ISB is mentioned. My point (with what you argue here) also was that on most cases its needed. Seems its you who argue with yourself that ISB is good solution but somehow on most cases its not needed.

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[Updated on: Tue, 14 March 2006 18:13]

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multilis wrote on Wed, 15 March 2006 00:48

In my current game enemy scout saw my SFX fairly early and it is non-ACCBBS.

In Non-AccBBS one has to start investing into colonizing almost decade later. Hands are therefore decade longer free to develop the HW and to research. If you look game announcements then its clear that non-AccBBS is atypical case, common case is AccBBS where one has to expand from barely developed homeworld into barely scouted universe. If your first post had "Join games without Acc BBS start" as first suggestion for alternatives to IFE then its lot less confusing.

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[Updated on: Tue, 14 March 2006 21:26]

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[Updated on: Tue, 14 March 2006 22:18]

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Of course using BOTH boosters AND IFE you can push out very far, very fast, very early... Using this tactic in a medium universe I once colonised a mutually green world that was less than 100ly from an opponent's homeworld.

I still think IFE is not an essential choice - you still give up a lot of points for it. I think carefully before every game about whether it's necessary for that particular in that particular game race. I end up taking it about 60% of the time. In that sense I think the IFE LRT is quite well priced, but could do with being *slightly* more expensive.

I've won three games without it so it obviously isn't all *that* good...

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[Updated on: Wed, 15 March 2006 19:08]

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Kotk wrote on Tue, 14 March 2006 11:41

Smaller distances to travel? Possibly. Being IFE-less is rather risky in some galaxy densities. Even Clumped Dense got often big voids between planets. Wide hab that Marduk mentioned here helps race actually to have covering network of fuel docks simpler. It is narrow hab with what distances between habitable planets may be too big to colony-hop without IFE.

My thinking on this is that with a narrow hab you won't be going to nearly as many systems and so don't need nearly so many boosters. With a small number of boosters needed at any given time, you can afford to use them for all your travel.

I can't afford boosters for all my travel in the early stages unless I'm narrow hab. If I'm wide hab, I often skip scouting systems in good positions and just send colonizers. If the system isn't habitable, one of my colony support missions in the area can pick up the colonists and minerals on the way back and drop them somewhere useful. In 2410, I usually have about a dozen colonizers en route, and a few privateers making supply runs to the early colonies. At that stage, just making the colonizers and a bare minimum of supply ships takes all my spare building capacity.

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[Updated on: Thu, 16 March 2006 17:13]

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