Home » Stars! 2.6/7 » The Bar » Unofficial patch...
Re: Unofficial patch... |
Wed, 15 February 2006 10:19 |
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Quote: | TT+OBRM CA in tiny packed with 210 leftover points (60 for PRT, 70 for OBRM, 80 for TT). Do you get at least 35K?
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Iztok tested the PicklePea mod which adds extra cost to terraforming and makes OA ships MUCH more expensive and seemed to find it a bit wimpy+boring but livable.
A reduced PicklePea type approach could be terraforming costs half normal race but no instaforming, OA costs double and weighs double.
IMO something should be done to make retro-bomber useful, or we use the component spot for something else (perhaps a special bio based beamer weapon or armour available to everyone to make bio tech more useful). Currently OA is miniturized by time retro becomes available and retro may take another slot+expensive so never used.
Instaforming left alone options: I don't know how hard it would be to tinker with terraforming and OBRM costs for only CA in racial wizard. Subtracting points from CA in racial wizard is likely easy. Weakening OBRM for all PRTs is likely easy.
I suggest we test ideas a bit then another poll with the most popular ideas. Longer term if we get bunch of other changes like with PP LRT figured out, we then would beta test the final product for few months.
[Updated on: Wed, 15 February 2006 10:25] Report message to a moderator
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Re: Unofficial patch... |
Wed, 15 February 2006 12:51 |
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mlaub | | Lieutenant | Messages: 744
Registered: November 2003 Location: MN, USA | |
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Uh. Leaving instaforming alone and tweaking the TT cost won't do much to the race. A friend and I once had a series of duels to determine which CA was better, a CA TT, or a just a CA with wider habs. I was able to make the TT perform better, but not by much (performance is subjective here, we took tech and mins into account). I was always killing him in the end game with TT25 and 30, ofc. However, up to that point it wasn't an eye popping difference, just better. The normal CA was still *way* better than a normal factory race, IMO.
Further, since a plain CA never needs to go past Bio 4... you can take Bio expnsive and concentrate on getting war techs. Scoops and RS are a natural fit for CA's, and you can pump out gatable Beam BB's fairly early. It's a great QS design.
No, I'd eliminate instaforming altogether, and make a special hull for the OA that weighed about 1500 without engines and OA's, but fairly cheap and low tech, so the CA can buy them early. Give it a buttload of fuel and next to no armor. That makes it nearly ungateable for anyone but a IT, and would slow the rate of terraforming to a more appropriate level, and ties it to econ.
-Matt
Global Warming - A climatic change eagerly awaited by most Minnesotans.
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Re: Unofficial patch... |
Wed, 15 February 2006 15:10 |
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Madman | | Officer Cadet 1st Year | Messages: 228
Registered: November 2003 Location: New Zealand | |
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The other thing to do is to give the CA some sort of weakness. Two 'fussy population' options I thought of (alas, neither are likely to be doable by tweaking the current executable):
(1) CA have instaforming, but because they expect to live in a good environment, they don't do so well away from optimum. Growth is growth_rate*hab^2, rather than growth_rate*hab, so a 50% planet only grows at 25% of the growth rate. Possibly growth_rate*hab^(3/2) if the squaring it is too strong, so a 50% planet would have 35% of the growth rate.
(2) CA don't believe in red planets, they want to live on habitable places, thank you very much. The 5% pop minimum is changed to 0%, so as soon as a CA colonizes a red planet it is overpopping, gets no resources and can build no factories. mines or defenses. Possibly don't even allow CA to colonize reds at all.
With either or both of these, CA might balance out quite a bit without need to remove instaforming or make the PRT really expensive, and it kind of fits the theme of the race. I suspect this is more of a future Freestars option than something we can do as a patch.
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Re: Unofficial patch... |
Wed, 15 February 2006 15:25 |
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Possible similar to how JOAT gets 20% more pop/planet, CA gets 20% less.
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Re: Unofficial patch... |
Wed, 15 February 2006 16:39 |
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Madman | | Officer Cadet 1st Year | Messages: 228
Registered: November 2003 Location: New Zealand | |
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I wrote on Thu, 16 February 2006 09:10 | (1) CA have instaforming, but because they expect to live in a good environment, they don't do so well away from optimum. Growth is growth_rate*hab^2, rather than growth_rate*hab, so a 50% planet only grows at 25% of the growth rate. Possibly growth_rate*hab^(3/2) if the squaring it is too strong, so a 50% planet would have 35% of the growth rate.
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Actually for this, I meant to use the hab^2 or hab^(3/2) for the growth rate and/or the maximum population multiplier (I've been playing AR exclusively for the last few months, so I forgot about maximum planet populations being dependent on hab )
multilis wrote on Thu, 16 February 2006 09:25 | Possible similar to how JOAT gets 20% more pop/planet, CA gets 20% less.
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This is probably more doable but not as much fun.
My idea was to make CA _need_ their really good terraforming, because they only do well on good planets.
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Re: Unofficial patch... |
Wed, 15 February 2006 22:26 |
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Zoiker | | Petty Officer 2nd Class | Messages: 59
Registered: January 2006 | |
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mlaub wrote on Wed, 15 February 2006 12:51 | No, I'd eliminate instaforming altogether, and make a special hull for the OA that weighed about 1500 without engines and OA's, but fairly cheap and low tech, so the CA can buy them early. Give it a buttload of fuel and next to no armor. That makes it nearly ungateable for anyone but a IT, and would slow the rate of terraforming to a more appropriate level, and ties it to econ.
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This is a nice balance - I like it.
Depending on the depth of the patch, perhaps future versions of the game (yes, I'm dreaming here) could have certain hulls designated as ungateable so we don't have to mess around with massive weights, etc. But this works for me!
Cheers,
Zoiker
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Re: Unofficial patch... |
Thu, 16 February 2006 08:01 |
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m.a@stars | | Commander | Messages: 2765
Registered: October 2004 Location: Third star to the left | |
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Madman wrote on Thu, 16 February 2006 10:42 |
m.a@stars wrote on Thu, 16 February 2006 22:17 | They already pay an extra for it, just not a lot, and less than SS and PP pay.
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I don't know what race wizard you are using.
If I click on NAS with most races, it gives me 108 points.
If I click on NAS with JOAT, it gives me 95 points.
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Sorry, hasty wording. As you state, JoaT get *less* points from NAS than other races. That's their "extra tax". Not a whole lot, tho.
But it would not be too hard to tweak the RW so that JoaT got, say, only 35 points from NAS.
[Updated on: Thu, 16 February 2006 08:01]
So many Stars, so few Missiles!
In space no one can hear you scheme! Report message to a moderator
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Re: Unofficial patch... |
Thu, 16 February 2006 19:31 |
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m.a@stars | | Commander | Messages: 2765
Registered: October 2004 Location: Third star to the left | |
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wizard wrote on Thu, 16 February 2006 17:07 |
m.a@stars wrote on Thu, 16 February 2006 14:01 | But it would not be too hard to tweak the RW so that JoaT got, say, only 35 points from NAS.
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JOAT shouldn't get anything from taking NAS, they should pay for it. Taking NAS is an advantage for JOAT. BUt that shouldn't be too hard to change either...
wizard
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Awww, c'mon, they are after all losing all those cool planetary scanners, plus some quite interesting ship-bound thingies....
[Updated on: Thu, 16 February 2006 19:32]
So many Stars, so few Missiles!
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Re: Unofficial patch... |
Fri, 17 February 2006 07:24 |
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Well it is true that a NAS JOAT cannot field massive penscanner ships and are limited to a maimum of 260ly of pen scanning which is 5.2ly at 98% cloaked, but really, who actually feilds ships like that anyway?
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Re: Unofficial patch... |
Fri, 17 February 2006 11:12 |
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Quote: | TT CA HG with 170 leftover points was also OK. It is somewhat weaker than JOAT or IS HG
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JOAT is with NAS?
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I will likely start a poll tomorrow on what to do with OA retrobombers currently being unused, unless someone has a better idea or launches a better poll. Happy to hear some input on choices.
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Re: Unofficial patch... |
Fri, 17 February 2006 15:20 |
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Kotk | | Commander | Messages: 1227
Registered: May 2003 | |
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multilis wrote on Fri, 17 February 2006 18:12 |
Quote: | TT CA HG with 170 leftover points was also OK. It is somewhat weaker than JOAT or IS HG
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JOAT is with NAS?
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Nay... i easily get 40K+ with NAS-less JOAT in tiny packed same with IS HG. SD HG and IT HG get like 35K. There are PP HG, SS HG, WM HG and AR with what i get only 30K. As side note ... Nothing beside HE gets over 25k in tiny normal.
Quote: | I will likely start a poll tomorrow on what to do with OA retrobombers currently being unused, unless someone has a better idea or launches a better poll. Happy to hear some input on choices.
| LEits suggestion was good but they cant be turned into "negative only OA-s" i suspect.
Other good idea is to do nothing ... or maybe to view all useless items like Retro Bomb, Jammer 10, Strobnium, Lady Finger Bomb, Black Cat Bomb, half of Smart Bombs, Sub Galactic Fuel Scoop and Robo Miner all together?
Also maybe lets poll if to increase the flexibility of hulls somewhat? Some hulls are just outright boring. Futuristic warship = BB? :-/ Even if to turn the 2 x 2-weapons slots on BB into "general purpose" it would be whole different game.
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Re: Unofficial patch... |
Sat, 18 February 2006 17:15 |
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Retro bombs[ 12 votes ] |
1. |
leave alone |
2 / 17% |
2. |
make OA ships more expensive/heavier |
3 / 25% |
3. |
replace bombs with better bio armour |
1 / 8% |
4. |
replace bombs with light anti-matter torps |
0 / 0% |
5. |
other |
6 / 50% |
(LEit's suggestion of no deterraforming with OA will be added to poll if someone finds a way to implement)
Quote: | Retro Bomb, Jammer 10, Strobnium, Lady Finger Bomb, Black Cat Bomb, half of Smart Bombs, Sub Galactic Fuel Scoop and Robo Miner all together?
| Which item in that list is made obsolete by a LOWER tech rather than higher tech alternative? I have been in games that used some of the others.
We seem to have 2 main factions, those who want only points out of race wizard, and those who want both instaforming and OA ships adjusted, an option is a compromise where each faction gets something.
[Updated on: Sun, 19 February 2006 02:39] Report message to a moderator
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