Home » Stars! 2.6/7 » The Bar » On serial #
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| Re: On serial # |
Fri, 03 February 2006 21:32   |
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Go you! Your generousity and those of your friends is appreciated, and not only by those seeking keys.
For them who receive these keys: I suggest you guard them jealously while you're still interested in playing Stars!, at least until some sort of formal key sharing thing is organised(which atm I'm uncertain about - there's too much room for abuse by the Gregs of this world.)
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| Re: On serial # |
Sat, 04 February 2006 00:31 |
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 NingunOtro |
 | Master Chief Petty Officer |
Messages: 105
Registered: September 2005
Location: Brussels, Belgium | |
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That is a very generous initiative, oldfan.
Certainly Iperithon deserves a reward for his interest and the way it was shown.
At this moment, as regular retail is no longer available since a few weeks, getting a legit serial is becoming almost impossible. Efforts are being made to convince those with the legal ability to issue new keys to continue providing this service to the comunity, but results are uncertain.
As an alternative, some of us have envisioned mechanisms to act as a sort of buffer between people using a client with non-legit keys and the server operating with legit keys, translating any non-legit serial into one of 16 legit ones. This means that by constituting a pool of 16 legit keys we could allow everybodys access to an unlimited number of games.
Could you keep those six licenses to yourself instead of giving them away, until we can discard the need for such a pool of licenses to which they would be a very valuable and much apreciated contribution?
These are just my personal thoughts on the matter, as I wanted you to know about the possibility as soon as possible and give it a thought before you give those licenses away.
Once again, either way, your effort is much apreciated.
If we were esteemed intelligent 'enough', they would have contacted us.
If we can not find them, either we are not smart enough, or they are smarter at hiding.Report message to a moderator
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| Re: On serial # |
Sat, 04 February 2006 20:19 |
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Running a serial pool get a bit more complicated when people using the numbers are in more than one game at a time.
eg (in cronologicaly order)
Game 1: 16 players, Ed get serial A, Joe not playing
Game 2: 16 players, Joe gets serial A, Ed not playing
Game 3: 16 players Ed gets serial err Joe gets serial umm...
which keys do you give Ed & Joe? having to change serials every time you play will be a PITA and at some point someone will forget and both players will get hit by it.
[Updated on: Sat, 04 February 2006 20:19] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: On serial # |
Sat, 04 February 2006 20:27 |
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Hey Gible, I think the idea they are discussing is that people play with whatever serials they like (even if not permitted by jrc4) but the host uses a script to automatically substituates in serial#1 to turn.x1, serial#2 to turn.x2 etc., so there's no risk of clashes.
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| Re: On serial # |
Sun, 05 February 2006 03:44 |
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| NingunOtro |
| Master Chief Petty Officer |
Messages: 105
Registered: September 2005
Location: Brussels, Belgium | |
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Exactly.
Along this path there are several options to be discussed:
1) Everyone plays with the serial his player number gets allocated in the pool and through the "proxy". This way no other than the 16 "official" serials play in the game and possible trouble with non-legit serials entering a game is permanently avoided.
2) Only those with non-legit serials use the proxy and get the pooled serial that matches the player number he has been allocated, the rest plays with his own serial and non necessary pool serials stay unused for that particular game.
3) The pool can be static, this means we get 16 legit serials that are permanently used for this purpose, and NOT AVAILABLE for any other use. The proxy can be used in any game at the same time because it never uses the same serial twice in the same game.
4) The pool can be dynamic, consisting of temporary serials contributed by people that are not using it in any game at that moment. It remains their property and can be withdrawn at any time should they need it to play a game with the inherent ethical backup of using their own instead of going through the proxy system themselves (note they COULD use their legit serial -contributed to the pool- to submit turns through that same pool, as it would be substituted as being presumed non-legit even if it might end up substituted by itself, but not to play directly as long as their serial could be participating in the same game through the proxy).
To enforce the fact that serials could be withdrawn from the pool at any time, at least 16 backup serials would need to stay available, covering the improbability that the 16 serials in use could be withdrawn all at the same time. Considering that people are guaranteed the use of their own serial at any time and that it remains their sole property, i do not think the proxy should need to be begging for serials at any given time.
Just a few ideas to get thoughts going, contributions and corrections are welcome.
If we were esteemed intelligent 'enough', they would have contacted us.
If we can not find them, either we are not smart enough, or they are smarter at hiding.Report message to a moderator
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| Re: On serial # |
Mon, 06 February 2006 23:34 |
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hmmm just had a thought....since stars! protection works on the basis of key+machine stamps...and only triggers when one key is matched with two different machine stamps....we actually only need one key if we're going to automate the open-delete-save_and_submit process, since even if all 16 players use the service they'll all have the same key+machine stamp! w00t!
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| Re: On serial # |
Tue, 07 February 2006 00:54 |
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| wumpus wrote on Tue, 07 February 2006 06:02 |
The probably simplest-to-implement method would be to just issue everyone the same S/N, and have a filter to edit the X file to replace the hardware+serial hash with a "standard" one before the hosting program does its thing...
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| gible wrote on Tue, 07 February 2006 15:34 |
hmmm just had a thought....since stars! protection works on the basis of key+machine stamps...and only triggers when one key is matched with two different machine stamps....we actually only need one key if we're going to automate the open-delete-save_and_submit process, since even if all 16 players use the service they'll all have the same key+machine stamp! w00t!
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Deja-vu? 
Edit: hmm, I sound like a bit of a smart alec there... Seriously, I'm glad somebody thought of it, even two people. The rest of us kept sitting there talking about 16 serials, but now that you guys mention it, it seems so obvious you only need one...
[Updated on: Tue, 07 February 2006 00:56] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: On serial # |
Tue, 07 February 2006 03:34 |
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| NingunOtro |
| Master Chief Petty Officer |
Messages: 105
Registered: September 2005
Location: Brussels, Belgium | |
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Yep, of course, the one-serial approach is not bad, it converts the situation totally or partially to a standard hot-seat game where indeed the same-serial protection does not kick in.
But wouldn't this force the "proxy" to be on Autohost? In fact, should it not force the proxy on Autohost to be using exactly Autohosts serial number? Because if the game is genned on Autohost, how would its server (with his own serial and machine hash) react to 16 imputs with identical serial numbers and machine hashes, but not being his own? Would'nt the server be acting as a sort of 17th player and kick in the protection scheme anyway because the machine hashes do not match his?
Conventional wisdom on hot-seat games ALWAYS implies one serial, but also one machine hash matching that serial.
We are trying game setups that do not fit te originally intended set of alternatives, and thus we are quite uncertain about how the game-engines code will react on them.
There are not only tecnical aspects involved, but also ethical and legal ones. If, and only if, we have no other choice but behaving less than matching the highest standards -having each his own and unique serial number-, then we should try hard to make the infringement and the corresponding risks as little as feasible.
Lets keep the impact on the operation or involvement of Autohost NIL if possible.
The 16 legit-serial proxy minimizes the impact on those standards because it only intends to allow ocasional use of non-legit keys (only because and while legit ones are no longer available), without changing anything else gamerelated. Its use of 16 legit serials makes sure it can exist stand-alone and does not need any outside involvement or anybody else to assume ethical or legal risks.
Its implementation, no matter which formula is chosen, should be kept under control of a trusted few and the service should be discontinued as soon as legit keys become available again. In fact, I would even ask anyone using the proxy to sign up for the purchase of a legit key as soon as they become available, and deny the service to anyone that could be pointed to the purchase of a legit serial instead.
If we were esteemed intelligent 'enough', they would have contacted us.
If we can not find them, either we are not smart enough, or they are smarter at hiding.Report message to a moderator
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| Re: On serial # |
Tue, 07 February 2006 04:04 |
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| NingunOtro wrote on Tue, 07 February 2006 21:34 |
But wouldn't this force the "proxy" to be on Autohost? In fact, should it not force the proxy on Autohost to be using exactly Autohosts serial number? Because if the game is genned on Autohost, how would its server (with his own serial and machine hash) react to 16 imputs with identical serial numbers and machine hashes, but not being his own? Would'nt the server be acting as a sort of 17th player and kick in the protection scheme anyway because the machine hashes do not match his?
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Actually, no. Only the players' codes matter. You can host a game without *any* serial code.
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| Re: On serial # |
Tue, 07 February 2006 23:52 |
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| PricklyPea wrote on Wed, 08 February 2006 03:52 |
That's what it says in the manual. Do you have to run cmdline to do this? Since if you press cancel at the serial dialog, it closes the program.
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I guess, or open the .hst file directly, which amounts to the same thing. AH runs on the command-line options so I wouldn't worry.(assuming AH is used for the actual hosting)
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| Re: On serial # |
Tue, 14 February 2006 20:55 |
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Just a note here:
Since I received one of the serial numbers from Oldfan, I'm willing to allow it to be used in a pool of some sort. I stil have my original serial number ad the reason I asked Oldfan for one of the ones he had available was twofold: 1) to guarantee that an extra is available if there is a real need and 2) so I can set up Stars! on my son's PC to play with him on my home network.
Ptolemy
Though we often ask how and why, we must also do to get the answers to the questions.Report message to a moderator
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| Re: On serial # |
Wed, 15 February 2006 01:33 |
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| iztok |
 | Commander |
Messages: 1207
Registered: April 2003
Location: Slovenia, Europe | |
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Hi!
| Quote: |
Since I received one of the serial numbers from Oldfan, I'm willing to allow it to be used in a pool of some sort.
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A simple idea: pool of 16 serial numbers. If a player would need a regular serial for a particular game, he'd take the serial of his player number: player #1 the first serial, player #14 the 14th serial...
This way one player could play in one game at a time without any problem. But if he would be in two games, where he'd need to use two different serials, he'd also need two different computers, or make sure he'd use a different stars.ini for each game. That'd also not be a big problem to solve: a simple batch procedure for each game, that would copy the appropriate starsDir\gameDir\stars.ini into %winDir%\stars.ini, and'd run the appropriate game.
This way anyone would be able to play a game at home, LAN or here on AH without any serial# problem, from the time the pool would be accesible on the net, to until Stars! couldn't be run anymore on existing computers.
Comments?
BR, Iztok
[Updated on: Wed, 15 February 2006 01:41] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: On serial # |
Wed, 15 February 2006 01:47 |
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| Madman |
 | Officer Cadet 1st Year |
Messages: 228
Registered: November 2003
Location: New Zealand | |
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| iztok wrote on Wed, 15 February 2006 19:33 |
This way one player could play in one game at a time without any problem. But if he'd be in two games, where he'd need to use two different serials, he'd also need two different computers, or make sure he'll use a different stars.ini for each game. That's also not such a big problem: a simple batch procedure for each game, that would copy the appropriate starsDir\gameDir\stars.ini into %winDir%\stars.ini, and'd run the appropriate game.
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This is the problem. If someone doesn't follow the proceedure, or the script messes up or something, they don't only mess up their own turn, but damage someone else.
Apart from that, it's a good idea. It might work if someone can write a piece of software that Ron can run on Autohost that checks for duplicate serial numbers (the same sort of idea as checking for corrupted turns), and emails people if there is a problem. That way someone making a mistake is just a game delay, rather than couple of players taking a big hit or a regen.
Hopefully this will all become moot if serial numbers can become available again.
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| Re: On serial # |
Wed, 15 February 2006 02:23 |
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PricklyPea and Gible both suggested a cleaner solution than the 16-serial pool. Just implement a script that replaces the serial and machine hash in incoming x files with a standard one. That way all turns appear to be coming from the same machine (like hotseat play) and so there would never be serial issues. Ever. At least on any host using the script.
All we need is two things:
1) Someone who knows their way around the x files (i.e. PricklyPea) needs to actually write the script.
2) We need to persuade Ron that this is actually a good idea... The main issues here being legal exposure (seems non-existent seeing as the product is no longer available for purchase, but still...) and the loss of the only practical method of uniquely indentifing players, short of requiring proof of ID on signup...
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| Re: On serial # |
Wed, 15 February 2006 03:31 |
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| BlueTurbit |
 | Lt. Commander
RIP
BlueTurbit died Oct. 20, 2011 |
Messages: 835
Registered: October 2002
Location: Heart of Texas | |
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| Dogthinkers wrote on Wed, 15 February 2006 01:23 |
2) We need to persuade Ron that this is actually a good idea... The main issues here being legal exposure (seems non-existent seeing as the product is no longer available for purchase, but still...)
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I wouldn't bet the farm on that. Copyrights don't expire if you stop selling the product.
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Many of them are in the same situation. So finally a list of 6 more serial numbers came together. That means, if anybody is intersted in them - just PM me. First come - first served. 
There's an off-chance I might get to having a detailed look at it on Sunday, but more likely only the weekend after.
tho he could have explained a bit for lazy buggers like me 
