[Updated on: Wed, 19 February 2003 13:58]

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[Updated on: Wed, 19 February 2003 17:24]

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Chee wrote on Thu, 20 February 2003 07:45

Thanks for your responces. I'm still trying to figure it all out. Here's some more data: The distance from Perseus to the minefield (in 2547) is 64.33 ly, the radius of the minefield is 64 ly. So I clearly should have been clear of this minefield. Right?

Wrong.

Because of rounding (up), you have to be at least 65 l.y. away to be considered out of the mine field. I had this experience in several games. In your case you seem to have been unlucky indeed.

Also it seems that heavy fields with very big laying fleets can somehow overflow "before" being swept. This is a bug. Maybe works as well with standards? In my experience, I understand it that way:
1-the field is layed, encloses the ennemy fleet
2-the ennemy fleet attempt to move and hit
3- the field is swept (somehow) and reduced enough to show as out of range of the fleet damaged.
{of course all in the same turn so you don't actually get to see the field enclosing your ship}

I don't know the mecanics exactly but some weird behavior has been observed with mine fields hitting when they shouldn't.

Now if you are in late game, you should have nice big shielded ships that shouldn't been destroyed by a single standard mine hit... You mention Nubians... Were they 99 % damaged?

My advice with minefields: play safe, avoid to go "as close as possible" if you don't need to. Don't play star wars in the asteroid field At least to me, it saved some ship from the eternal void...

Also one good way to figure exactly what happened is to ask the owner of the field what he saw on his side. There is nothing secret now, so at least this you can share.

Good luck,

YucaF

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I'm hosting this game.

The edge of the minefield in question does seem to cover at least part of the planet. It definitely covers part of the "orbit" of the planet.

Since ships are in orbit and not on the planet surface, I think this is a normal situation. I don't think it matters that the minefield is to the east of the planet, and Dan was moving west from the planet. His ships were in orbit and the minefield covers part of that orbit.

Comments?

))

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yucaf wrote on Thu, 20 February 2003 13:49

Because of rounding (up), you have to be at least 65 l.y. away to be considered out of the mine field. I had this experience in several games. In your case you seem to have been unlucky indeed. Also it seems that heavy fields with very big laying fleets can somehow overflow "before" being swept. This is a bug. Maybe works as well with standards? In my experience, I understand it that way: 1-the field is layed, encloses the ennemy fleet 2-the ennemy fleet attempt to move and hit 3- the field is swept (somehow) and reduced enough to show as out of range of the fleet damaged. {of course all in the same turn so you don't actually get to see the field enclosing your ship} I don't know the mecanics exactly but some weird behavior has been observed with mine fields hitting when they shouldn't. Now if you are in late game, you should have nice big shielded ships that shouldn't been destroyed by a single standard mine hit... You mention Nubians... Were they 99 % damaged? My advice with minefields: play safe, avoid to go "as close as possible" if you don't need to. Don't play star wars in the asteroid field At least to me, it saved some ship from the eternal void... Also one good way to figure exactly what happened is to ask the owner of the field what he saw on his side. There is nothing secret now, so at least this you can share. Good luck, YucaF

Actually fleet movement occurs first, BEFORE mine laying, and then mine sweeping occurs third. So my fleet that swept at the end of the last turn should have been clear to move out this turn. Unless, like you said, there is a bug that rounds the mine field radius up somehow.

As for my fleet; My nubians were not directly destroyed by the minefield. My 300+ mini-bombers, plus various scout, chaf, fuel transports, and mine layers were also lost. However, because the nubians hit the minefield and never left the planet, they became prey for a swarm of enemy nubains that reached the planet next year (if my nubains had moved the 30 ly at warp 6 I had ordered, they would have reached the safety of a starbase, another 100+ nubians and some minefields of my own).

I will ask my opponent what he saw from his side. (Whether he answers or not is another question)

Thanks for the help.

So I guess the question now is; Is this a BUG? Can I justify a regeneration of the turn, or am I stuck with it?

Thanks,
Dan

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StarMaster wrote on Thu, 20 February 2003 14:32

I'm hosting this game. The edge of the minefield in question does seem to cover at least part of the planet. It definitely covers part of the "orbit" of the planet. Since ships are in orbit and not on the planet surface, I think this is a normal situation. I don't think it matters that the minefield is to the east of the planet, and Dan was moving west from the planet. His ships were in orbit and the minefield covers part of that orbit. Comments? ))

How can the minefield cover part of the orbit when the ships that were there (100+ nubains) had orders to sweep the field the turn before? Look at the distance from the Perseus to the minefield and the radius of the minefield in 2547. It does NOT cover part of the planet.

Unless there is some sort of rounding up bug.

I can send you my hall.m6 file from 2547 and give you my password and you can see that the fleet in orbit of Perseus swept the minefield back... out of the orbit of Perseus.

I hate being difficult like this, but I hate being cheated out of my fleet like that. (I say cheated, but I don't know that I was cheated. It just feels like I was cheated.)

I'm just wondering if anyone had any insight on the subject, or if anyone has experienced a similar phenomenon.

Thanks,
Dan

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yucaf wrote on Thu, 20 February 2003 19:49

Chee wrote on Thu, 20 February 2003 07:45 Thanks for your responces. I'm still trying to figure it all out. Here's some more data: The distance from Perseus to the minefield (in 2547) is 64.33 ly, the radius of the minefield is 64 ly. So I clearly should have been clear of this minefield. Right? Wrong. Because of rounding (up), you have to be at least 65 l.y. away to be considered out of the mine field. I had this experience in several games. In your case you seem to have been unlucky indeed.

YucaF is right here, it is because of the rounding.
When there is a field with (taking Chee's real situation) a radius of 64ly and your fleet moves through ("to" or "from" doesn't matter) a point at 64.33ly that means you will be IN the minefield.
I just ran a test, a 56ly minefield, 300 ships at 56.85ly from that field, sending them _away_ at warp10 ... 1 ship gets killed, so Chee had some REALLY bad luck ...

I noticed stuff like this when playing SD and killed some of my own ships with a detonation, while it should have been out off the minefield ...
Going a bit off topic and more to the SD situation, the strange part was that if a fleet did NOT move but were at 64.33ly from the 64ly radius detonating field it did NOT get damaged, however if a fleet end up in space at 64.33ly from the minefield it DID get damaged!

regards,
mch

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Chee wrote on Fri, 21 February 2003 17:13

Wow. Thanks for your input Micha. I think this needs to get posted somewhere, or added to the list of bugs at starsfaq, so that people can be aware of it.

You're welcome.
Too bad James doens't have time to update the Stars!FAQ list, there are IIRC at least 3 other important bugs out there that should be documented and known by everyone ...

I don't want to get in James' his way since he's doing a great job with the Stars!FAQ, but maybe it would be a good idea to have a bug page somewhere on the AutoHost?
A standard of bugs and cheats not allowed in AutoHost games?

...

Open a new thread about this or just a "no" from Ron? It will give him again a lot of extra work while the Stars!FAQ is already there (although not complete) ...

regards,
mch

[Updated on: Fri, 21 February 2003 15:26]

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Sorry for the late post, been swamped with work.

Here's a 400% zoom of the area in question. I've used ship filters to keep out as much as possible, while still showing the "orbit" around Perseus.

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/brucetsmith/STARS.HTM

It's clear that at least the eastern part of the ship orbit path is covered by the minefield.

The question is should he hit any mines moving SW to Vega.



PS - I guess we don't like BMPs, and I don't have my image converter. Hold on while i put a little HTM file out there... OK, click the link to see the BMP. Sorry...

[Updated on: Sat, 22 February 2003 21:24]

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