Home » Stars! 2.6/7 » New Game Announcements » Andromeda Strained - Remapped Spiral Galaxy
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| Re: Andromeda Strained - Remapped Spiral Galaxy |
Wed, 07 December 2005 10:47   |
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 mlaub |
 | Lieutenant |
Messages: 744
Registered: November 2003
Location: MN, USA | |
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| mazda wrote on Wed, 07 December 2005 06:17 |
Excellent.
Somebody with a sensible perspective and a sensible answer.
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Which is great to see, but if this was directed at me, you are missing the point. I am not arguing for "chaff sweeping" here, I am pointing out that it wasn't covered in the rules for this game. Period.
It's also stupid to think that everyone in a game will interpret the rules the same way. It is much easier for the host to take a couple minutes, and jot down the rules in a clear and concise manner. It was my understanding that the host was looking for comments. That's what I am doing. He came up with cool idea for a game, and I'd hate to see it fall apart because someone misinterprets the rules and then quits when the host punishes them.
The chaff definition stated above "Chaff is when you deliberately create a fleet of relatively cheap, armed vessels for the sole purpose of being used as cannon fodder." still neglects the unarmed chaff uses for freighter, bombers and colonizers. That may have been on purpose, but I would suggest "Chaff is when you deliberately create a fleet of relatively cheap, armed or unarmed vessels for the sole purpose of being used as cannon fodder."
That still leaves collision sweeping to anyones interpretation.
-Matt
Global Warming - A climatic change eagerly awaited by most Minnesotans.
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| Re: Andromeda Strained - Remapped Spiral Galaxy |
Thu, 08 December 2005 07:49 |
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| mazda |
| Lieutenant |
Messages: 655
Registered: April 2003
Location: Reading, UK | |
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| mlaub wrote on Wed, 07 December 2005 10:47 |
Which is great to see, but if this was directed at me, you are missing the point. I am not arguing for "chaff sweeping" here, I am pointing out that it wasn't covered in the rules for this game.
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Oops. No offence intended.
It may have been me that, rather ironically, raised the issue of "chaff sweeping" anyway.
I agree that it wasn't covered, and hence that it is allowed.
IMO the host isn't banning collision sweeping, just the 1-missile-1-kill battle board algorithm abuse.
[Updated on: Thu, 08 December 2005 08:30] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Andromeda Strained - Remapped Spiral Galaxy |
Thu, 08 December 2005 19:42 |
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| mlaub |
| Lieutenant |
Messages: 744
Registered: November 2003
Location: MN, USA | |
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| Dogthinkers wrote on Thu, 08 December 2005 16:15 |
I think this is covered by the host's comment: | our estimed host wrote: |
'Chaff' is any large group of ships designed with the express purpose of attracting missile fire to protect more important vessels.
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In small stacks the described DD is an effective minesweeper so you do have a valid excuse to build them, but when deployed in large stacks escorting captial ships it becomes quite clear what they are really being used for... 
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Ok, not thousands. However, I do remember building hundreds in a game not to long ago. Chaff was not banned, and they were built exclusively to get rid of pesky SD minefields. Probably never had more than 100 in any one fleet at a given time, too. I had to keep them near, or with fleets, to protect them from anti sweeper ships.
Obviously in a game that didn't ban chaff, no one questions these tactics...
Just thought I'd ask.
-Matt
Global Warming - A climatic change eagerly awaited by most Minnesotans.
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| Re: Andromeda Strained - Remapped Spiral Galaxy |
Mon, 12 December 2005 14:17 |
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| Quote: |
In small stacks the described DD is an effective minesweeper so you do have a valid excuse to build them, but when deployed in large stacks escorting captial ships it becomes quite clear what they are really being used for...
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To back Matt up, if dogthinker thinks back to CFLKIAB, I used lots of destroyers against him as warships mid game.
Destroyers gate 100/250, reasonably good armour/cost ratio especially with BET, and very effective in certain types of nasty hit and run skirmish warfare, more than just chaff though true that is part of their role when combined into bigger stacks.
Last game I used collodial phasor and sapper DD as WM (battle speed bonus), they were very useful annoying warships that sniped non-warships, fought heavy shielded frigates, mineswept, sapped shields, etc.
(We may want to split some of this discussion into separate thread)
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| Re: Andromeda Strained - Remapped Spiral Galaxy |
Wed, 14 December 2005 13:45 |
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| Orange |
 | Officer Cadet 1st Year |
Messages: 215
Registered: November 2005
Location: TO, ONT, CA | |
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Do the players get to set their first turn orders? It makes a huge difference i.e. factories and mines do not get built if you do not schedule them.
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| Re: Andromeda Strained - Remapped Spiral Galaxy |
Thu, 15 December 2005 02:27 |
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| iztok |
 | Commander |
Messages: 1206
Registered: April 2003
Location: Slovenia, Europe | |
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Hi!
| multilis wrote on Mon, 12 December 2005 20:17 |
Last game I used collodial phasor and sapper DD as WM (battle speed bonus), they were very useful annoying warships that sniped non-warships, fought heavy shielded frigates, mineswept, sapped shields, etc.
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In almost every game I've been in had the same dilema: DD sweeper or DD sweeper/light skirmisher. Almost always I came to the same conclusion: cheap sweeper only, with beamer CC as skirmisher.
Reasons: I usually start skirmishing early in the game, with low tech and a small amount of free resources, so warships (especially sweepers) should be cheap: DD, wolverine/crobby shield, 2 bazookas/miniguns, LH-6/FM engine, optional fuel pod. Such a design sweeps well, skirmishes averagely at that timeframe, reasonably cheap. IMO a skirmisher should have better battle speed (an AD-8 engine or DLL-7 and a man-jet) and weapons (colloidal(s) or one sapper). However that doubles its price, and still makes it lose in 1_to_1 combat against the bazooka-only design.
So no wonder you used DDs so well with the WM PRT. Its combat speed bonus and cheaper weapons make it IMO the only PRT that can make cost-effective multipurpose DD warships.
[Edit]Well, the IS with its crobby shield can also make good sweeper&skirmisher FF design, but it's not such a cost-effective one.
BR, Iztok
[Updated on: Thu, 15 December 2005 02:59] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Andromeda Strained - Remapped Spiral Galaxy |
Thu, 15 December 2005 11:39 |
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| Quote: |
Its combat speed bonus and cheaper weapons make it IMO the only PRT that can make cost-effective multipurpose DD warships.
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Warmonger also has battlecruiser and dreadnaught which argue against DD. I used DD more extensively as HE, in dogthinkers game I had BET and CE which both helped, and we had long bloody war from beginning, I ended up mostly BB and DD (few if any cruisers).
IMO any race can make effective use of DD, there are times when it works better than cruiser as more multi-role power and gate 100/250 is useful on spread out border war. It is also easier to hide a few in a cloaked suprise sniping force.
An example from Wizard in last game (he was SS), was DD with 2 expensive torps (w18?) and really good engines, a hit and run counter skirmisher.
"IMO a skirmisher should have better battle speed" - a single range 5 torp is an alternative (perhaps combined with a beam weapon to allow minesweeping).
IMO having chance to shoot first can be important, so I have used gattlings, sappers often.
[Updated on: Thu, 15 December 2005 11:49] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Andromeda Strained - Remapped Spiral Galaxy |
Fri, 16 December 2005 15:20 |
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| Orange |
| Officer Cadet 1st Year |
Messages: 215
Registered: November 2005
Location: TO, ONT, CA | |
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There has been alot of debate about the DD as a sweeper. I guess the trouble with DD designs is that it may be build as expensive chaff and argue (& probably rightly) that it is a sweeper, because it is/can be both at the same time. The only distinguish feature between them, that I can use, is the actual number of ships build i.e. 100 vs. 1000. With 100, you are using them sweepers/skmirshers. With 1000, you are using them as chaff as well as sweepers/skmirshers.
I would not worry about chaff for freighters, bombers, etc.
I think that is simpler to just ban scout, frigates, and DDs after x,y, and z turns. Only allow crusiers as sweepers/skmirshers & even chaff after z turns.
Anyway thats my 2 cents worth.
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| Re: Andromeda Strained - Remapped Spiral Galaxy |
Fri, 16 December 2005 15:41 |
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| Orange |
| Officer Cadet 1st Year |
Messages: 215
Registered: November 2005
Location: TO, ONT, CA | |
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Hi Host
Victor - alliance or single only?
Could you also clarify some the rules (non-chaff related) such as what constitutes the center of the galaxy i.e. x light yrs from center? or does my ships need orbit a planet, one of a set that is considered to be the center?
what about a cloaked fleet starting from the center going close to arm A (but not orbit a planet of arm A), but then hopping over the gap to attack a planet in adjacent arm B?
What if I sent a spy ship from the starting arm towards another arm, but not actually land/orbit any planet of the other arm, did it cross the gap to the other arm? if so, when did it cross over to the other arm? If there is a border, can I attack a ship just on the other side of the arm border spying on me?
Another question, if I destroyed the host gate colony at my arm's galaxy tail, are you going to attack all of my planets or just attempt to get that planet back?
I like your game premise, just trying to close out some loopholes. You may wish to delete the arm acrossing rule and change to a huge sparse galaxy to increase the distance between arms (which may work in a similar fashion without the need for the rule).
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| Re: Andromeda Strained - Remapped Spiral Galaxy |
Fri, 16 December 2005 16:05 |
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| FurFuznel |
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Messages: 437
Registered: November 2002
Location: New Brunswick, Canada | |
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| Orange wrote on Fri, 16 December 2005 14:41 |
what about a cloaked fleet starting from the center going close to arm A (but not orbit a planet of arm A), but then hopping over the gap to attack a planet in adjacent arm B?
What if I sent a spy ship from the starting arm towards another arm, but not actually land/orbit any planet of the other arm, did it cross the gap to the other arm? if so, when did it cross over to the other arm? If there is a border, can I attack a ship just on the other side of the arm border spying on me?
You may wish to delete the arm acrossing rule and change to a huge sparse galaxy to increase the distance between arms (which may work in a similar fashion without the need for the rule).
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I think you might be missing the point about the arms. This will be played on a re-mapped game universe. Therefore, there will be actual gaps between the different arms of the universe not simply definitions of planets as being in arms. Therefore, it will be pretty clear if you have crossed the gap to the other arm. At least that is how I understand the line in the game definition at the start of this thread which stated:
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The game will be played in a galaxy remapped to a spiral.
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Shadallark / FurFuznel
Shadallark <==> FurFuznel
Mental anguish is for those who choose to think - FurFuznel
running Mac OS X 10.6.7
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| Re: Andromeda Strained - Remapped Spiral Galaxy |
Fri, 16 December 2005 18:27 |
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| Orange |
| Officer Cadet 1st Year |
Messages: 215
Registered: November 2005
Location: TO, ONT, CA | |
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| FurFuznel wrote on Fri, 16 December 2005 16:05 |
I think you might be missing the point about the arms. This will be played on a re-mapped game universe. Therefore, there will be actual gaps between the different arms of the universe not simply definitions of planets as being in arms. Therefore, it will be pretty clear if you have crossed the gap to the other arm. At least that is how I understand the line in the game definition at the start of this thread which stated:
| Quote: |
The game will be played in a galaxy remapped to a spiral.
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Let me clarify - the planet orbit was only a suggestion as to what may constitute crossing the "gap".
you are on arm A and I am on arm B. I have some pen scanner ships that I would like to use to spy on your colonies on arm A. What do I need to do?
- Can I position my spy ships just my side of mid-way between my arm and yours? therefore, I have not crossed the "gap"? At what point have I crossed the "gap"?
- If you wanted to intercept my spy ships, what can you do? would you have to cross the "gap" (i.e. border) to attack my spy ships?
- what if I established a toehold on your Arm A, but as short cut, I send my supply ships from arm B half way across to meet transports from arm A and transfer over the supplies. Ships from neither arm have crossed the "gap", but I think it violates the spirit of this rule.
- there is also the usual problem of detecting cheating against an SS player.
[Mod edit: fixed quote]
[Updated on: Sat, 17 December 2005 10:55] by Moderator
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| Re: Andromeda Strained - Remapped Spiral Galaxy |
Sat, 17 December 2005 19:20 |
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| The_Crowd |
 | Petty Officer 2nd Class |
Messages: 55
Registered: September 2003
Location: Vancouver, WA. USA | |
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Wow! A wonderful amount of great comments. It's hard for me to fathom how chaff became such a HUGE issue, but I'll try and clarify things here.
First off though, I still have half a dozen open slots available! I'll be taking race files up to the first of the year and we should get started a week or so after (Ron takes a little time getting his end of things going sometimes). If you would like to play, then bring on those race files!
Okay, now to answer some of the questions that I've been ignoring.
1. NO production will be allowed during the 50 year jumpstart. That means no mines, factorys, defenses or ships will be built by any player other than the host. In fact, you won't have access to turns until that 50 years are up.
2. Yes, I will turn random events off. Although I LOVE the MT, it would really suck to get hit by a big comet during that 50 years.
3. No one is going to start in the galaxy core except for the host. Therefore, should a players fleet end up in a different arm and they didn't use the Grol gates or pass through Grol space to get there then they are cheating and will be immediately expelled from the game.
4. Ships will not be allowed more than 25 LY from any edgeworld into the gap between arms. I will add this to the main game notes.
5. The Biggie. Chaff. Okay, lots of good comments about this, but once again I'm absolutely NOT going to designate what components applied to a ship make it chaff as far as this game is concerned. I don't care if you build 200 Yak FFs, just so long as they aren't running with a bunch of jihad BBs. It's not about the ship design - it's ALL about how they are used. And once again, I have faith that those people who decide to play will understand that and will build their fleets accordingly. I don't like rule benders any more than I like rule breakers so if that's what you like to do then go play somewhere else. Collision sweeping minefields is fine. Building minesweepers is also fine. But if you build a hundred of them and they are only armed with a red laser, I better not see them form up and join another fleet of larger ships.
I'm certain that I missed something, and if so please remind me of it and I'll try and reply a little more quickly this time.
Jay
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| Re: Andromeda Strained - Remapped Spiral Galaxy |
Mon, 19 December 2005 08:07 |
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To me it sounds like an interesting game. But,
| Quote: |
Chaff will not be allowed.
The split-fleet dodge will not be allowed.
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reminds me of difficulties in CFLKIAB with endless debate due to vagueness of "no split fleet dodge" rules. Others could use certain tactics to sweep my fields and skirmish that I was afraid to use due to vagueness of breaking the rule.
FYI I had deployed 400+ destroyers of several different configurations, each with all weapons slots used by 2450... they were early mainline beamers and even when I had enough BB they still were nice for 100/250 gates in skirmishes... defending my metamorph missile boats from beamer attack.
So following mlaubs comments, warning is given to design your race to limit the sillyness of debate, unusual stuff like BET and CE are trouble here as favor accused of 'chaff' destroyers. Meanwhile intentionally chaff cruisers and larger ships are ok.
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What's the thought on armed DD's? Say hundreds...or thousands...Does that count as chaff?
