Home » Stars! Clones, Extensions, Modding » VML lounge » New Geneticus MOD proposal
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Re: New Geneticus MOD proposal |
Thu, 04 August 2005 10:17 |
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crr65536 | | Chief Warrant Officer 3 | Messages: 180
Registered: June 2005 | |
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Some things jump out at me:
The powers of the (formerly range 0) weapons hav been dropped to 10, 20, and 30 ! They say they're intended to be chaff killers, but they can't even kill one FF chaff, and the weaker ones can't kill a scout chaff! Since the whole point of chaff is that one missle can only kill one chaff, if one beam can only kill one chaff (or less) it doesn't make the situation much better.
With everything being GP slots, who would research con past 13? WMs, ITs, and ARs, I guess, but certainly no one would feel compelled to take the con tech all the way to 26, with battleships having so many GP slots. Also, are DNs better than Nubians now?
I'm sorry if my tone is aggressive. These changes just seem very surprising to me.
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Re: New Geneticus MOD proposal |
Thu, 04 August 2005 14:24 |
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Andrev | | Crewman 2nd Class | Messages: 11
Registered: July 2005 Location: Poland, Gliwice | |
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Quote: | The powers of the (formerly range 0) weapons hav been dropped to 10, 20, and 30 ! They say they're intended to be chaff killers, but they can't even kill one FF chaff, and the weaker ones can't kill a scout chaff!
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What is the goal with destroy many chaff units with ONE W0 element? You can create few units with many slots of W0 to kill chaff or build space stations with these... Beamer's W0 power is totalized. Additionally you can used more EC elements to higher power.
Quote: | With everything being GP slots, who would research con past 13? WMs, ITs, and ARs, I guess, but certainly no one would feel compelled to take the con tech all the way to 26, with battleships having so many GP slots. Also, are DNs better than Nubians now?
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Yes, you're right... but I've few "but":
IT: you needen't use any/any gates. But if you want to have full gateble fortress ships you can research it...
WM: research not for DN. I see that you didn't try this mod. If you try to do this you'll see that DN is very (too?) expensive. DN can be used as non-military unit (f.e. as cloaker)
AR: You're right. DS is too expensive for this race... but DS has a lot of GP slots. More than 100!
DN vs. NB huh, have you ever compared these designs with costs? NB is cheaper few times than DN, aren't you?
Other races needen't research past con13... and can research faster other fields or faster build high-power fleet.
I hope that everyone see that play by mod is not simple... You can more possibilities and traps into this game...
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AndrevReport message to a moderator
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Re: New Geneticus MOD proposal |
Thu, 04 August 2005 14:51 |
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crr65536 | | Chief Warrant Officer 3 | Messages: 180
Registered: June 2005 | |
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Andrev wrote on Thu, 04 August 2005 14:24 |
Quote: | The powers of the (formerly range 0) weapons hav been dropped to 10, 20, and 30 ! They say they're intended to be chaff killers, but they can't even kill one FF chaff, and the weaker ones can't kill a scout chaff!
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What is the goal with destroy many chaff units with ONE W0 element? You can create few units with many slots of W0 to kill chaff or build space stations with these... Beamer's W0 power is totalized. Additionally you can used more EC elements to higher power.
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My point is: if the missle boats are more effective at killing chaff than the "chaff-killers", well then, you can see where that leads ...
To be honest, I haven't tried the mod. I read your description on your site, and it seems like there would be many unbalancing factors, and certain decisions seem to be reasonable ideas (for example your chaff-killer weapons) but with rather poor execution . Am I correct that all non-engine slots except for bomb slots and mining robot slots have been replaced with GP slots? Something doesn't settle with me that 13 levels of Construction - half of them are more or less useless - in addition to high Bio being useless and high propulsion being useless, and high energy yielding very little as well. The whole point of construction 17-23 yielding nothing, as I understand it, is that for a significant investment, you get a super hull with many more advantages. This has been taken away in this mod, it seems to me.
Then, of course, there are the objections voiced earlier, and other ones that can be deduced:
PP, already considered the weakest PRT by many (who can take that discussion up in another thread), is now even weaker .
SS loses its cloaking advantage, since everyone can make good overcloakers relatively easily.
WM is at more of a disadvantage, since other people will have more effective minelayers (FF minelayer can lay 7 now) and DNs are, according to your post, very expensive.
I'd imagine it would be easier to build gatable warships now, making things worse for ITs.
SD doesn't have so much of a minelaying advantage.
Nothing disturbs CA continuing to have such a large economic advantage.
HE's meta-morphs are less valuable.
And probably other things I didn't think of.
What I am wondering is - what is it about Stars (plain old Stars) that you think needs fixing? There are many things I could put on a list, for example balancing CA, but I'm not sure what the real purpose of these changes is. Sure, I could get into having everything GP slots , but there are reasons why they aren't .
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Re: New Geneticus MOD proposal |
Thu, 04 August 2005 14:57 |
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Andrev | | Crewman 2nd Class | Messages: 11
Registered: July 2005 Location: Poland, Gliwice | |
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Quote: | its general trend of modding to turn too few into too many and vice versa
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Yes, but (fortunatelly ) in few players opinions, mod is more playable than standard Stars! game...
Quote: | What i dont like is that this mod is against my two favorite PRT-s. SS is meaningless and AR too hard to play in universe where all these JOAT-s, IT-s and CA-s are invisible.
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Maybe your right with AR. This mod is good to play with medium universe or less, with use BB as mean military unit. In bigger universes all use light and cheap NB as the mean ship...
But I disagree with your opinion about SS.
SS can full-cloak ALL his own units, and use to do this less GP slots! Therefore, SS units can be stronger (more military slots), do you see it?
For your example: non-SS race must use all (!) slots with cloak to hide his own CC design...
And races with their special designs (like SS) are more flexible than without them (like your's JoAT, IT, CA)
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AndrevReport message to a moderator
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Re: New Geneticus MOD proposal |
Thu, 04 August 2005 15:56 |
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Andrev | | Crewman 2nd Class | Messages: 11
Registered: July 2005 Location: Poland, Gliwice | |
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Quote: | My point is: if the missle boats are more effective at killing chaff than the "chaff-killers", well then, you can see where that leads ...
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Cost is the key. Missiles are very expensive. Additionally: beam and missile range is similar, and beam has more initiative...
Quote: | Am I correct that all non-engine slots except for bomb slots and mining robot slots have been replaced with GP slots?
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Unfortunatelly, if you have GP slot, you can't build engine, bomb or mining robot. It's not my fault.
But I don't want to give corrections depth inside in game...
Quote: | Something doesn't settle with me that 13 levels of Construction - half of them are more or less useless - in addition to high Bio being useless and high propulsion being useless, and high energy yielding very little as well. The whole point of construction 17-23 yielding nothing, as I understand it
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I don't understand you. All are a standard rule of original Stars game. Now you only can discover NB, but I think it isn't necessary to win! With mod you can faster build high-tech fleet.
Why si original game with this rules OK, but this mod already not?
Quote: | PP, already considered the weakest PRT by many (who can take that discussion up in another thread), is now even weaker .
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? The PP is still weak. What is different?
My goal is not totally balanced Stars! game, but more playable.
Quote: | SS loses its cloaking advantage, since everyone can make good overcloakers relatively easily.
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No! SS is still better with cloaking. Non-SS race can hide his CC by usying all CC slots as cloak. It's mean that unit is stronger (but not hide), or weak... This choise is yours.
Quote: | WM is at more of a disadvantage, since other people will have more effective minelayers (FF minelayer can lay 7 now) and DNs are, according to your post, very expensive.
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Yes, but WM has cheaper weapon and can used it more on unit.
WM can use (for example DN) as mine-layer too or very fast mine-destroyer. Wm can use (f.e. on DN design) more beam deflectors like NB to better self-defence...
And empty DN design is stronger, but who tell you to use all slots? The cost of not full design will be cheaper, huh?
Quote: | I'd imagine it would be easier to build gatable warships now, making things worse for ITs.
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Yes! And this adventage of IT is worse! But only IT can build and fast transport high-heavy fortress...
Quote: | SD doesn't have so much of a minelaying advantage.
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But can use his additional designs as standard ships.
Quote: | Nothing disturbs CA continuing to have such a large economic advantage.
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Sorry, but CA, IT and JoAT are the best and simply races to play... but now they aren't worse, other races (I think) are better. Its advice, because this reces and other are more balanced
Quote: | HE's meta-morphs are less valuable.
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Yes, your right, but MM is still poor construction. But high HE adventage is cheap and fast weap6 transporter (on mini-colony ship hull).
Quote: | What I am wondering is - what is it about Stars (plain old Stars) that you think needs fixing? There are many things I could put on a list, for example balancing CA, but I'm not sure what the real purpose of these changes is. Sure, I could get into having everything GP slots , but there are reasons why they aren't .
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Yes, your right again.
But have you enyoyed when you've built all time this same CC and BB design? When all haven't palyed and have still waited for con26 and NB design?
The best goal of this mod is: you must search new strategies.
Maybe some corrections are worse (f.e. with armours, W0, W1-3) but now it is other game...
Now, to first battles you can use heavy DD! But in stadard game all have waited for "standard" CC hull.
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AndrevReport message to a moderator
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Re: New Geneticus MOD proposal |
Fri, 05 August 2005 01:12 |
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Andrev | | Crewman 2nd Class | Messages: 11
Registered: July 2005 Location: Poland, Gliwice | |
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Quote: | Since the BB has miniaturized 52% by the time you have Nubian tech, you get more slots for less, because it's effective cost is less than half. It's heavier, but it's more cost-effective in any other aspect - and plus since BB init is higher you need fewer computers, although you will need more armor to match a Nubian's.
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You see that not only IT needs research construction >13 for his any/any gates.. but all players
Now, BB can be not gateable and slow - if you use all slot as military equipment. Anyway nobody have played on BB, so I don't know: is BB more effective than NB or not.
Your're right about cost, but BB effectivity has other sides - as you see from your post, you MUST research construction to less cost of BB and discover standard "empty" con levels.
Then you have additionally light design (NB).
[Updated on: Fri, 05 August 2005 01:40]
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AndrevReport message to a moderator
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Re: New Geneticus MOD proposal |
Fri, 05 August 2005 02:16 |
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I've found the most interesting mods to be those that work to equalize the competitiveness of each of the PRTs.
IMO, the primary goals should be to
1) decrease the power of CA by a limited amount compared to the rest of the PRTs;
2) increase the power and efficacy of AR and PP w/ regard to rest of PRTs.
3) Slightly offset some of WMs and SS's shortcomings.
There are a few completely useless parts that could be improved as well...
g.e.
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"When the newspapers have been read, the TV sets shut off, the cars parked
in their various garages. Then, faintly, I hear voices from another star.
(I clocked it once, and the reception is best between 3:00 A.M. and 4:45
A.M.). Of course, I don't usually tell people this when they ask, "Say,
where do you get your ideas?" I just say I don't know. It's safer."
-P. K. DickReport message to a moderator
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