Home » Stars! 2.6/7 » The Bar » can HE/3I 6%(12) reach 25K at 2450?
| can HE/3I 6%(12) reach 25K at 2450? |
Thu, 24 March 2005 20:51  |
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 griboedov |
 | Crewman 2nd Class |
Messages: 14
Registered: March 2005
Location: netherlands | |
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There is prove all over that 25K in 2450 is possible for a good race design, but what are the minimum requirements to reach that goal?
I've been spreadsheeting a bit with a HE/3I 6% to see if it can reach the limit, but I can't possibly imagine that nobody tried to do this before.
No, do not send me solutions to the problem, but if it is still unsolved, share the fun of the process 
Here are some keys as I see them:
* with best fac and pop efficiency, I still need over 4.8M pop to support the factories.
* This means effective growth rate 11,10%. (Production should grow by 12,4% but that doesn't seem a bottleneck to me).
* This growth rate implies, that no planet should reach the 25% pop limit, as this means 12% of that pop is to be exported, dropping the growth rate by 1,44% for my largest planets, where only 0,9% is allowed.
When actually playing the race, I guess NRSE is important, with propulsion cheap for IS-10. And IFE of course.
I have some more insights to share with you, but was thinking to first introduce the topic, to see if somebody is interested at all.
Anyway, the spinoff will be an awesome  spreadsheet and I am planning on including environmental factors as well.
[EDIT]
Just for your interest: I am mainly trying to calculate the (im-)possibility. I use normal startup (25K pop). With 100K starting pop it is easy.
[Updated on: Fri, 25 March 2005 06:12]
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| Re: define best MM? |
Fri, 25 March 2005 12:40  |
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| iztok |
 | Commander |
Messages: 1207
Registered: April 2003
Location: Slovenia, Europe | |
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Hi!
| griboedov wrote on Fri, 25 March 2005 18:16 |
But what exactly is the best MM?
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To never get a breeder's pop above 25% capacity, if you have another planet where that pop can grow as fast as on the breeder. To move all execess germ to where it is needed for factories.
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I mean, how did you calculate the 11% limit?
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Many, lots, and then some more testbeds. You'll be actually lucky if you pull out 11%. My result with 12% HE in tiny packed is usually between 10.4% and 10.8%. In tiny uni I run out of new planets and breeders start crowding much sooner.
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I have started playing it and now (year 2426) my pop is 412,500. This is an annual growth rate of 11,38%.
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But more and more planets will be at 25% and the travel time will start taking its tax on the overall growth.
There is a HE section here on the AH Forum. I'd suggest you to check it for many interesting discussions regarding that issue.
BR, Iztok
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| Re: define best MM? |
Tue, 29 March 2005 00:05 |
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| griboedov |
| Crewman 2nd Class |
Messages: 14
Registered: March 2005
Location: netherlands | |
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You really triggered me, by calling it impossible.
On my last attempt I rose 5,2M pop, producing 14K in resources. But I ran the last 9 years through without further management, because I saw no way to build the factories in time.
I guess a 25K attempt is at hand anyway. And what's more: I found the correct way to calculate the maximum achievable growth rate. With average planets (5,15,25 at 1y, 2y and 3y jumps) it is 11,4%.
I'll describe my methods in the HE section, like you suggested.
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| Re: can HE/3I 6%(12) reach 25K at 2450? |
Tue, 29 March 2005 07:52 |
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| Carn |
 | Officer Cadet 4th Year |
Messages: 284
Registered: May 2003 | |
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| griboedov wrote on Tue, 29 March 2005 14:20 |
In a melee game AccBBS is a huge disadvantage to HE, by the way, as it's HW starts crowding by turn 3, no matter what you try. I think this is the main reason why HE's are considered to be weak by most players.
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The pop number with AccBBS is growth dependant i think 25000 + growth rate*5000, so 6% HE starts with 85000.
That means in 2405 you have 149700 and need ships for 9200 pop(3 spore clouds already), after that 16500 per year.
With 19% standard you start with 120000 and have in 2405 286300, so need ships for 8800 or less pop, after that 52200 per year.
HE needs con3 for efficient pop export, others need con4 and prop2. Furthermore, the HE ships are back 2 turns later due to 3i, while others ships take very soon longer.
To me it looks like the pressure impossed upon drawing resources from fac building to research and pop export is more serious for fast growing small hab races. A 3i HE will feel little, even a 6% HP HE gets along well compared to a 17% standard HP.
Standard 19% gets 284900 in 2414.It gets 119400 in turn 2409, so is speeded by AccBBS by 9 turns or so.
HE with 6% gets 153000 in 2416. It gets 86400 in turn 2411, so is speed up by 11 turns via AccBBS.
Most importantly standard races grow without AccBBS for 14 turns independantly of their hab ranges, while the 3i HE doesn't profit for 16 turns from it's immunity.
With AccBBS standards grow only for 5 turns hab independant, while 3i HE starts to profit from it's hab in turn 6.
Furthermore HE's facs are normally cheaper, therefore early ship building hampers less.
I think 3i HEs are only a valid option with AccBBS, because otherwise their 3i advantage comes far to late.
And for 4% HE it's obvious without AccBBS first pop export in turn 23, with AccBBS in turn 10, that is 13 turns speed up, and 4% does only care for pop number.
High starting pop is only a problem for 1i or no i HEs, already 12% selected means with AccBBS 145000 in turn 0. Without AccBBS high growth HEs could have an edge, e.g. with 15% pop export starts in turn 7, long enough to get con3 and long before anyone else to get an edge, ignoring diplomatic and MM problems from the planet hunger.
Carn
[Updated on: Tue, 29 March 2005 07:54] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: a completely different perspective... |
Tue, 29 March 2005 12:53 |
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| Quote: |
In a melee game AccBBS is a huge disadvantage to HE
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Wrong. 3I HE designs almost always gain from AccBBS. It is the high pop growth HEs that get burned. (For more background, before gateless was imposed on HE, there were duels with a JOAT to prove how strong HE was. With AccBBS the HE cleaned but without AccBBS was even fight).
Reason is everyone has 100% green at HW, so growth rate of 12% is way slower than standard 15%-19%. Once HW is 25% full the others have to switch to poorer greens and transport farther than 3i so 12% growth rate then kicks butt.
Even with no tech you can build small freighters and mini-colonisers with nothing in mech slot to get pop moving right away. You are 3i, so any planet will do in a pinch (though mineral rich is desired).
Pop can move at fastest warp below 10 most of the time due to mini-colonizer hull as fuel booster/transport/fuel generator.
[Updated on: Tue, 29 March 2005 12:54] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: a completely different perspective... |
Tue, 29 March 2005 13:48 |
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| iztok |
| Commander |
Messages: 1207
Registered: April 2003
Location: Slovenia, Europe | |
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Hi!
| multilis wrote on Tue, 29 March 2005 19:53 |
(HE) Pop can move at fastest warp below 10 most of the time due to mini-colonizer hull as fuel booster/transport/fuel generator.
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<nitpick>
I always thought it is the engine Settler's Delight that makes all that possible. 
</nitpick>
But I completely agree with you. The only thing 3i HE needs to successfully run colony drive is con-3, nothing else. Settler's Delight is an excellent engine for its costs and tech level  , but coupled with the Mini Colonizer hull it makes awesome freighter for moving those small amounts of pop a single HE planet produces. I tried to use PVTs, Medium freighters, LFs... Each of them was an overkill  , or I had to sacrifice a turn of growth to move it fully loaded with pop.
Yeah, looks quite obvious I'm waiting for a game in small uni to test my HE design in it.
BR, Iztok
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| Re: a completely different perspective... |
Tue, 29 March 2005 13:49 |
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| griboedov |
| Crewman 2nd Class |
Messages: 14
Registered: March 2005
Location: netherlands | |
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I am starting to see why I have trouble playing the HE with AccBBS, as I tend not to allow any planet to become 25% full. This strategy gives the opportunity to maintain high population growth rates for much longer and focus on maximising pop growth. Sadly, I have yet to experience whether or not my pop maximising strategy supplies me with a race that is capable of fighting.
This thread was mainly meant to be a mathematical case study, I guess. But now it turned into some merry 'it does too - it does not', where I take the honors of throwing in something stupid every now and then, as far as actual playing is concerned.
Since I first opened this thread (with a question) i've been working on an algorithm that gives maximum growth to my pop, as long as the borders don't fight back. However, max growth can only be achieved if I start settling no earlier than a certain gameyear. If I expect to settle "my part of space" in 50 years, no settlers should arrive before the year 7, for instance. But this is quite impossible with AccBBS .....
-.-.-.-.-
Hey, now I see!
It helps to write about the topic. I should define my part of space as the year 43, not 50!
Thanks a lot, multilis! 
I am planning on putting my math in the HE forum as soon as I know how to present it in a way that everyone can read it, but you just gave me an idea about how to hit 100K in 2450...
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