Home » Stars! 2.6/7 » The Bar » What is the next best PRT?
| What is the next best PRT? |
Thu, 03 February 2005 15:16  |
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 Lord Mushroom |
 | Crewman 1st Class |
Messages: 25
Registered: February 2005
Location: Norway | |
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Most players say CA is the best PRT, but what is the second best?
Can someone answer this question and explain why, and preferably illustrate it with an example-race and strategy?
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| Re: What is the next best PRT? |
Thu, 03 February 2005 15:38  |
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This needs to move to the Bar....or the Academy.
However, IT is generally considered to be the 2nd best PRT for the simple reason that cargo (colonists and minerals) can be sent via stargate. Not to mention having gates with no limits. IT's can afford to use more missile ships since they can gate them arround whereas other PRT's can't gate the mass of a missile BB.
By being able to gate colonists, IT's can expand quick to planets that are farther away from the core population growth worlds in the early game.
Some people may disagree here as to whether IT is actually the 2nd best PRT. Once CA is taken out of the picture, cases can be made for JOAT and SD also. However, if I were to rank PRT's I would put IT a little ahead of both of those.
Ptolemy
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| Re: What is the next best PRT? |
Thu, 03 February 2005 17:40 |
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Much depends on game setup.
JOAT is in theory the strongest full eccon power, you get more pop per planet, good points with NAS (using hull scanning bonus), and one of the best set of initial game research.
IT prefers a larger, more open game to make good use of gates. IT has one of nastiest -f. Weakness of being more spread out and vulnerable to mineral packet attacks can mean trouble if many others gang up. Big difference if IT is allowed to help friends with gate access or not in game settings. (IT has less eccon points to spend in race creation wizard, compensates by spreading out faster to find more good greens).
SD is among hardest to attack, a well played and super micromanaged minefield setup can hold off a much larger power especially in the early going of a game. Special slow down toy can give battle advantage, throw battles in favour of missiles rather than beamers.
IS can be really strong, especially in later going. Planet gobbling, abillity to easily fill planets up even beyond 100%. Crobby armour good initial boost, and cloaker detection nice in end. Weapons more expensive which hurts most mid game missile boats and mid game expensive beamers.
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| Re: What is the next best PRT? |
Fri, 04 February 2005 03:02 |
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| iztok |
 | Commander |
Messages: 1207
Registered: April 2003
Location: Slovenia, Europe | |
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Hi!
| The Lord wrote on Thu, 03 February 2005 21:16 |
Most players say CA is the best PRT, but what is the second best?
Can someone answer this question and explain why, and preferably illustrate it with an example-race and strategy?
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To answer your question in short: it depends of the game setup. However most of "normal" games are won by PRTs that get good economy (CA, JoaT, IT, IS), because the formula JC has written long ago: econ=tech=ships still holds. That's also the reason why I avoid "normal" games. 
I'd suggtest you to check google group rec.games.computer.stars. Despite it's quite quiet now, you can find there answers on most questions you can think of now and in the near future. Also check www.starsfaq.com for additionall resources (articles, designs, abbreviations...) to improve your gameplay.
BR, Iztok
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| Re: What is the next best PRT? |
Fri, 04 February 2005 07:14 |
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| Robert |
 | Lt. Junior Grade |
Messages: 393
Registered: November 2002
Location: Dortmund, Germany | |
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Yep - everything right, I personally would say, depending on game setup, JoaT and IT are second best.
Just to point out some advantages:
20% more planet "size" does not only mean 20% more resources in the end, it also means a much faster growth than other PRTs.
In effect at the hold level of whatever you pick, the amount of pop that grows is 20% higher, so you "could" say JoaT have a built-in 20% higher growth rate once planets are filled up.
Combined with the ability to scan the universe quickly they got a great start usually (not forgetting to mention the start tech).
Another thing many players consider a bug, or at least unfair, is the fact that JoaTs get a lot of points for picking NAS, while SS gets only few points, and PP none at all when having 4+ LRTs. This is hard to understand for most players - still JoaT is the "cheapest" PRT when taking the points for NAS into account, not SD for example (ok, this is discussable).
Another nice thing about JoaTs is, that they are so easy to play.
Nice PenScans, good starting tech etc.
Still, there is one disadvantage about JoaTs: they have nothing to trade - or less than others. SD can trade minelayers or dampeners, IS tachyons, CA OAs, SS robbers,...
A JoaT has nothing to trade, so he is not that goot as an ally compared to other PRTs - Still IMO JoaT is in most normal games the second most powerful PRT after CA.
The advantages of the IT are for one thing the faster growth (pop spends less time in space), the possibility to distribute pop for best growth most easily, and good starting tech in const and prop (privateers from start on).
Also -pointwise- the IT "could" spend less points on LRTs. IT are best suited for CE or non IFE LRTs, which gives nice points.
Also NAS is not that bad with the IT planet scanning - so ITs can live with say NRSE, CE, OBRM, NAS and start with a lot of points in the race wizard, leaving more points for other nice things. Also IT can live with less mines operated, cause he is able to distribute the mins he has much better than any other PRT. Also a minor point-mine.
But apart from the econ, or point advantage IT has some great things in the game later (JoaTs not really). They can defend planets much better (gate in what they got from wherever they want), can gate heavy ships, scan enemy planets with gates, distribute pop and mins... things like that.
So apart from the economy things, he has some more fun-features later, and depending on game setup can also be considered the 2nd best PRT...
So - whate every the others say, the are of course right 
Just wanted to say why...
IS has of course some nice features, growing in space gives the ability to fill up planets to 100% capacity much quicker than other, so effectively in mid-game they grow to their max power fastest rate. Also the tachyon can be a great toy to trade and be really useful (pray there is an SS in the game, better far away). I just think IS is not as powerful as JoaT or IT, but close after them (and again it depends on the game setup).
Ok, thats it - hope I could help a bit
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| Re: What is the next best PRT? |
Fri, 04 February 2005 07:14 |
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| Carn |
 | Officer Cadet 4th Year |
Messages: 284
Registered: May 2003 | |
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| iztok wrote on Fri, 04 February 2005 09:02 |
Hi!
However most of "normal" games are won by PRTs that get good economy (CA, JoaT, IT, IS),
BR, Iztok
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Then it is a good sign to be in late game as SS close to leading JOATs in resources, with potential to catch up?
Carn
[Updated on: Fri, 04 February 2005 07:15] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: What is the next best PRT? |
Fri, 04 February 2005 10:21 |
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| Crusader |
 | Officer Cadet 2nd Year |
Messages: 233
Registered: January 2003
Location: Dixie Land | |
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Yes, yes, if by "best" you mean which PRTs give you the best chance of walking away with a win, then by all means you simply absolutely must play the economy inclined PRTs. Design races along the lines of the JOAT, IS models, with IT right up there as well. (We are assuming that CA is not available at this point)
Even SD can make an economy monster if you can stand the MM of all those mine fields and know how to struggle with the lack of ship slots in the mid-game period.
And the tri-immune HE's were the first "monster" races to rule the early Stars! games, of course, until players figured out how to monster the other PRTs to fight those nasty, banned HE's. I still see those HE's pop up in games on a fairly regular basis. They can be tough opponents to go up against.
But, as JC also pointed out several years ago, any race can be "monstered" nowadays - defined as being able to reach the now standard 25k by 2450 benchmark. But can any monster race win a game? Not necessarily. econ=tech=ships is a definite truism, if all else is equal. If the fighting skills of all the players are equal and the diplomatic skills of all the players are equal, then econ=tech=ships pretty much guarantees you a victory. I can not argue that point any more than anybody else.
However, it is also rare that all else is equal in a game. Can I get an "amen" from the choir?
The real question, at least to my mind, is which PRT suits your particular personality and playing style? The better question, in fact, when you get right down to it, is which Whole Game Strategy, which helps to determine your overall race design, best suits your own unique, individual, and unrepeatable personality and playing style?
Aren't these conversations fun? 
Which PRT do you think is "fun" to play? Personally, I like the war fighting PRTS. I like trying to design WM and SS races with a particular strategy in mind and see how well I can make it work in an unsuspecting universe. Usually I wind up fighting a long, drawn-out defensive battle against superior numbers due to my lagging economy, this is true; but every once in a while all the parts come together and I have a wild ride to victory.
But then, I admit it, many have tagged me as aggressive and confrontational. Me? Surely not! 
Iztok is right, of course, darn his normal, logical mind! The old NG is the perfect place to search for ideas, hints, guides and strategies for this ol' game of ours. After all, the true Ancient Ones reside there. The ones who came up with all the real innovations lived there and all us poor slobs that came after can only feast upon their ideas like so many blood-sucking leaches. (Mmmm...leaches) 
Luckily it does not detract from the game at all, being a blood-sucking leach, that is. And I personally like rehashing all this stuff about Stars!, so let's go ahead and talk about all this stuff again like we just made it up for the first time ourselves, right here and now. Yeah! I like that idea. Let's do that!
Your ever-loving, blood-sucking Crusader 
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| Re: What is the next best PRT? |
Sat, 05 February 2005 13:57 |
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| iztok |
| Commander |
Messages: 1207
Registered: April 2003
Location: Slovenia, Europe | |
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Hi!
| The Lord wrote on Fri, 04 February 2005 15:08 |
How would a tri-immune HE, growth rate 6%, with excellent factory settings do in a "normal" game compared with IS, IT and JOAT?
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More speed earlier (40k-50k econ @ 2450), less capacity later, and still NO GATES  . If you really want to play HE then take 5% PGR and dump 300 RW poits in mine efficiency. This will make BIG difference in late game, when minerals become scarce for all other races, but yours and ARs. But if there is a live (and competetent) AR in late game there's not much chance for your race to be victorious anyway  .
For more details about HE check HE section in Primary Racial Traits forum here on AH.
BR, Iztok
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| Re: What is the next best PRT? |
Sat, 05 February 2005 15:35 |
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| iztok |
| Commander |
Messages: 1207
Registered: April 2003
Location: Slovenia, Europe | |
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Hi!
| Robert wrote on Fri, 04 February 2005 13:14 |
Still, there is one disadvantage about JoaTs: they have nothing to trade - or less than others. SD can trade minelayers or dampeners, IS tachyons, CA OAs, SS robbers,...
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OK. You did excellent analysis of JoaT, I'll do IS.
No race has so many fatures as the IS. It's second cheapest PRT and it can trade lots of things, two being really usefull: Tachion Detector and Speed Bump minelayer.
Its pop grows in space, effectively allowing them to take 1-2% lower PGR for the same speed, and still be able to max their planets much faster then other races.
They can be pop-dropped only with great costs (+100% bonus in ground combat defense and -33% cost of defenses).
Crobby Sharmor itself is one of the best toys for early warfighting, mounted on a DD with two gattlings makes one of the cheapest sweepers in the game.
Jammer 50 is one of the best things against cap-missiles.
Late mid game pop from Flying Orgies can easily increase resource output from an empire from 40% (+f races) to 100% (-f races).
Late game Flying Orgy in Super Freighters can easily be a game winner.
Price for all that: +25% in weapons costs (not such a big deal with boranium being the most abundant mid and late game mineral) and no Smart bombs (who actually uses them anyway ).
HTH.
BR, Iztok
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| Re: What is the next best PRT? |
Sat, 05 February 2005 22:10 |
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| Quote: |
How would a tri-immune HE, growth rate 6%, with excellent factory settings do in a "normal" game compared with IS, IT and JOAT?
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I have won 2 games with variations of such and lost 0. As others have noted 'no gates', makes things much different.
Everything is a tradeoff, whether (4%) or 5% or 6% growth rate, mineral settings, tech settings, factory settings, etc.
You run into similar variation with other races... a JOAT with lower than usual growth rate but better than usual somewheres else can also have strong potential.
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| Re: What is the next best PRT? |
Sun, 06 February 2005 07:18 |
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 Ahh yes, the tried and true method of testing race designs 
N E V E R that is never, NEVER Never -  plan on using a race in a game if you haven't tried it in a test.  Otherwise, you won't have any idea how it will likely perform.
Obviously, when you've played as many games as I have, you have a fairly large stock of 'cooked' races. Granted, the G#LiMi Prime I can choose for various games and I will win - G#LiMi Prime has been cooked, tried, played and tested and won with before several times. However, even I would not be so stupid to put that monster (or it's cousin the G#LiMI) into a tiny universe, 3 player, cut-throat game  The Empire would never get to be built -  (Ahh well, Rome was built in a day after all).
So, you see, races are specific for scenarios.
Ptolemy
Emperor of a Thousand Suns
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| Re: What is the next best PRT? |
Mon, 07 February 2005 02:48 |
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| iztok |
| Commander |
Messages: 1207
Registered: April 2003
Location: Slovenia, Europe | |
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Hi!
| Ptolemy wrote on Sun, 06 February 2005 13:18 |
N E V E R that is never, NEVER Never - plan on using a race in a game if you haven't tried it in a test. Otherwise, you won't have any idea how it will likely perform.
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Well said, Prolemy! I'd add just a bit of my experience. IMO you used word "test" in singular just from habit, as ONE test doesn't reveal much of a race design.
I'm specialized in non-standard games where "standard" designs aren't appropriate, and have therefore developed a thorrough testing method for checking design's performance in such game settings. What I do is progresively more intense testing of a bunch of designs, that would fit in the given universe, starting with a set of requirements those designs should meet, and testing their performance with SB Possey's spreadsheet, to ending in a tesbed where 2-3 best designs are put against each other for 50+ turns. It takes about one week of work with several dozens of tests with spreadsheet and more than a dozen of testbeds to make ONE design and whole game strategy for it. Now couple that with a lot of MM I usually put in a game and you get a really nasty combo. Those that have been in a game with me know what that means .
To repeat again what Ptolemy already said: if you want to be successfull in a game, do testbeds 
BR, Iztok
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| Re: What is the next best PRT? |
Mon, 07 February 2005 18:55 |
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| iztok wrote on Mon, 07 February 2005 07:48 |
It takes about one week of work with several dozens of tests with spreadsheet and more than a dozen of testbeds to make ONE design and whole game strategy for it.
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I guess most people wouldn't be willing to put that much work into preparation for a single game.
Maybe we could put together a game where the parameters (game size, density, any special rules) are announced at, say, 4pm on a certain day with races to be submitted by 5pm the same day. That way the best race designs would come from the people with the most experience, not just the most time on their hands.
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