Home » Stars! 2.6/7 » The Bar » XENOPHOBE - New Game
| Re: XENOPHOBE - New Game |
Thu, 16 December 2004 14:03   |
|
 Kang |
 | Senior Chief Petty Officer |
Messages: 87
Registered: April 2003 | |
|
Just catching up on the game posts.  I'm still waiting for my "speacial rules" game to start. 
This one has an interesting premis, but some very nasty complications. My proposals for game rules:
1) this game will NEED a moderator. Public player scores are needed as well.
2) AR is not allowed. (To facilitate other game rules)
CA is also not allowed per original post idea.
3) Begining of game: 1st race you spot, either a planet, or a ship of that race is your target.
If you spot 2 or more races on the same turn, determine which is your target race using the following:
IF you spot a planet of one race and fleet(s) of another, target the race whose planet you spot.
IF planets of two races are spotted, target the race with the closest planet to one of your own. If they are the same distance, moderator decides your target.
IF fleets of two or more races are spotted the same turn, the closest one to one of your planets is the target. If they are the same distance, the moderator gets to decide.
Moderator decision on your target is NOT required until all races have spotted at least one other race. This will allow him some discretion toward getting everyone on the list to be attacked. 
4)You may pop-drop any planet if it has 50000 or less population as indicated on your scanners.
5) All races should be set as enemy at all times. Battle plans must be set to attack everyone.
6)You may attack any fleet or starbase belonging to anyone within 100 LY's of one of your colonies.
This will allow sweeping of enemy minefields, and removal of mine layers in close proximity to your planets.
This will allow you to protect your remote mining planets from colony fleets, and allow you to keep unwanted vermin from colonizing indiscriminately within your sphere of influence.
If they manage to plant the colony, you lose that planet until you can attack that race. You can still keep him from building a starbase or supplying troops to that planet if you so desire.
7) You may NOT bomb any race other than your designated target. You may NOT packet any race other than your designated target.
Your second target can be attacked as soon as your primary target is reduced to 1/4 of your resource total. This will allow you to move on once he is beaten back to nothing and will not require you going to the ends of the universe to kill a dead player. After all, you don't ignore the ants in the pantry because you used to have an infestation of cockroaches.
9) Your second target will be the next race on your list that is in the top 1/4 of players by resources.
10) After the second race is eliminated you are free to attack anyone and every one.
Are you willing to host?
Report message to a moderator
|
|
|
|
| Re: XENOPHOBE - New Game |
Thu, 16 December 2004 23:54 |
|
|
|
The rules are still open to exploitation. The 100ly rule seems to make sense, until you realise that that means I can attack anybody - the only restriction is that I have to have a star within 100ly of the target star. That is not difficult to accomplish, unless we are in a sparse universe. Once I take that planet, I can move on to other stars within 100ly of that one and so on.
Also, there is no real incentive to be aggressive, especially if you have no assigned attackers. It would make more sense to sit back and develop your resources and tech, safe in the knowledge you cannot be attacked while the others fight.
I'd play HP, and stay on my homeworld for the first 15 years while my neighbours discover each other 
[Updated on: Thu, 16 December 2004 23:55] Report message to a moderator
|
|
|
|
| Re: XENOPHOBE - New Game |
Fri, 17 December 2004 09:00 |
|
| Kang |
| Senior Chief Petty Officer |
Messages: 87
Registered: April 2003 | |
|
| Dogthinkers wrote on Thu, 16 December 2004 21:54 |
The rules are still open to exploitation. The 100ly rule seems to make sense, until you realise that that means I can attack anybody - the only restriction is that I have to have a star within 100ly of the target star. That is not difficult to accomplish, unless we are in a sparse universe. Once I take that planet, I can move on to other stars within 100ly of that one and so on.
|
The idea behind the LY rule is to allow you some control of your space. You can prevent colonization and intrusion into your space if you are strong enough. As you are still prohibited from bombing or packeting planets other than your assigned enemy, you are limited in your expansion to planets owned by him, or planets that are unowned. This should allow early expansion and minor conflict over border worlds without seriously changing the original idea behind this game.
Yes, a very strong and aggressive player may intrude into your space and make life a living hell on your production and shipping, but he is prohibited from bombing/packeting your colonies until you come up on his list of targets. Of course you can keep him out by colonizing all available planets. 
| Quote: |
Also, there is no real incentive to be aggressive, especially if you have no assigned attackers. It would make more sense to sit back and develop your resources and tech, safe in the knowledge you cannot be attacked while the others fight.
I'd play HP, and stay on my homeworld for the first 15 years while my neighbours discover each other
|
That is the first stategy I thought of as well. It will probably take less than 15 years for your HW to be discovered unless everyone has adopted the same strategy.
Perhaps you could desgn a OWW and be at 5K production before you are discovered. Whoever discovers you first will of course be your target.
Perhaps the list of desgnated target races should be kept secret until everyone has a designated target. Then you can scout only if you are willing to take the risk of being discovered.
Report message to a moderator
|
|
|
| | |
| Re: XENOPHOBE - New Game |
Mon, 20 December 2004 01:11 |
|
| The_Crowd |
 | Petty Officer 2nd Class |
Messages: 55
Registered: September 2003
Location: Vancouver, WA. USA | |
|
Reply to (mostly) Kang:
Public players scores were proposed by someone else earlier and I thought it was a good idea then. We'll be using them.
Ther's no reason to make the order in which you attack difficult. If you spot two or more races, you simply pass them on in the order you'd like to deal with them.
Intentional pop dropping on any planet not owned by your primary target will not be allowed. If you want to control the nearby worlds, then park defensive fleets or else colonize them yourself.
Yes, I think you're probably right that all races should be set to enemy at all times. We'll impose that one.
No, I'm not going to allow attacking fleets or starbases within 100 LY of one of your colonies. WAY too easy to exploit. Anyone can simply colonize a world and then attack nearby ones to get around the entire idea behind the game.
As I've mentioned before, sweeping mines is perfectly acceptable because it is PASSIVE. If you have someone parking pesky minelayers somewhere you don't like, then simply keep them as a waypoint for a fleet with battle orders not to shoot. You'll sweep their fields to nothing every year.
Bombing or INTENTIONALLY packeting an occupied world other than your primary target is not acceptable. This is ACTIVE aggression, and as such won't be tolerated. If, however, you're playing PP and packetize a colonized world by accident or if you bomb a planet when you're planet-hopping without realizing that it was occupied, then you're fine.
Okay, I will step back from total annihilation of your opponent before moving to the next - slightly. If you spend 5 years searching for the remains of your foe without locating any of his worlds AND you have reduced him to 1/4 or less of your total resources THEN you may begin attacking your next target. HOWEVER. You may never be attacking more than 2 players at any one time. So, if you reduce 2 players down to 1/4 or less, blah, blah, then you will have to do some clean up to continue.
No, I'm not going to change the order in which players are attacked. The reason is that once the order is established, then there's very little maintenance. You simply look at who's next on the posted list. The only thing that the host will need to do is take out those players who either drop or are destroyed. I believe in the K.I.S.S rule, and in this case, intend to follow it.
Hmm. Well I think that killing off two players isn't a certain sign of your ability to defeat the rest. However, when someone has taken out THREE players, then I think we should see where the rest stand and then make a decision about grinding on some more or bending knee. I don't want it to be a free-for-all until that point at least.
Keep those race files coming!
The_Crowd
Report message to a moderator
|
|
|
|
| Re: XENOPHOBE - New Game |
Mon, 20 December 2004 02:26 |
|
|
|
| The_Crowd wrote on Sun, 19 December 2004 04:57 |
And just how exactly, ohh mighty Stars! god, are you planning on getting a warfleet on every world before anyone does any colonizing? 
Yes, if you somehow manage to park a warfleet on every planet and somehow everyone else knows you're there, then unless they spotted you first they would not be able to do much about it and you'd own the whole universe.
Then you'll wake up. 
The reality is that flying armed vessels along with your colonizers to protect them is ALSO perfectly acceptable as anyone who's gotten the gist of this game has already figured out. So unless they're also flying with pen scanners, that tactic is probably not going to save you.
I have to say Dog, that was a nice attempt at shooting down the game. Maybe if you try hard enough some day you'll actually scare away some players. But how about you instead put up a race file and then you can discuss your game issues with the rest of the people who're actually playing?
The_Crowd
|
Not trying to shoot down the game, sorry if it sounded that way. I was very interested in playing, but wanted to see if there was a way to remove the exploits from the game first, rather than risk having to have that conversation mid-game.
Report message to a moderator
|
|
|
|
| Re: XENOPHOBE - New Game |
Mon, 20 December 2004 13:32 |
|
| Kang |
| Senior Chief Petty Officer |
Messages: 87
Registered: April 2003 | |
|
| The_Crowd wrote on Sun, 19 December 2004 23:11 |
Reply to (mostly) Kang:
Ther's no reason to make the order in which you attack difficult. If you spot two or more races, you simply pass them on in the order you'd like to deal with them.
|
I didn’t think the proposal I made was terribly difficult, and it would make it less likely that someone was left with nobody attacking them for the first portion of the game.
| Quote: |
Intentional pop dropping on any planet not owned by your primary target will not be allowed. If you want to control the nearby worlds, then park defensive fleets or else colonize them yourself.
|
Allowing someone to lay claim to a planet with a single colonizer is not my idea of rational. By setting a minimum level of population required to be considered a colony (I suggested 2xPrivateers) you are ensuring a more normal colonization period. With the rules you currently have I would build nothing but colonizers secure in the knowledge that I cannot be pop dropped on before I get enough colonists there to make the planet a viable colony.
| Quote: |
Yes, I think you're probably right that all races should be set to enemy at all times. We'll impose that one.
No, I'm not going to allow attacking fleets or starbases within 100 LY of one of your colonies. WAY too easy to exploit. Anyone can simply colonize a world and then attack nearby ones to get around the entire idea behind the game.
|
I would agree with this IF you were allowed to bomb/packet/pop-drop on those planets to remove the population, but you cannot according to the rules. This still make it somewhat pointless to attack a base or a fleet unless it is causing problems for you of attaining your primary goal, or causing you to not be able to colonize unused planets. Of course by the time you have the firepower to attack a starbase there will be no un-colonized planets unless there is a minimum required population to keep the colony safe from pop-drop. By your rules a player can park a minesweeper within a LY of my planet to sweep minefields and I have to let him do this.
| Quote: |
As I've mentioned before, sweeping mines is perfectly acceptable because it is PASSIVE. If you have someone parking pesky minelayers somewhere you don't like, then simply keep them as a waypoint for a fleet with battle orders not to shoot. You'll sweep their fields to nothing every year.
|
This sounds simple in theory, but not in practice. I will just fly at high warp back through a minefield, and your ship will follow at the same warp speed. Or if your trying to keep SD fields in check by this method, He just has to move back into an exploding field.
| Quote: |
Bombing or INTENTIONALLY packeting an occupied world other than your primary target is not acceptable. This is ACTIVE aggression, and as such won't be tolerated. If, however, you're playing PP and packetize a colonized world by accident or if you bomb a planet when you're planet-hopping without realizing that it was occupied, then you're fine.
|
I agree that a PP must be able to target colonized planets, but not with the intent of removing the colonists. This is difficult to ensure, particularly if a planet is “Held” by only a couple colonists. If every planet is colonized in the universe, the PP MUST target a colonized planet. However, Unintentional bombing should not be tolerated at all. Bombers should have orders set to attack only the primary target.
...
Report message to a moderator
|
|
|
|
| Re: XENOPHOBE - New Game |
Mon, 20 December 2004 13:42 |
|
| Kang |
| Senior Chief Petty Officer |
Messages: 87
Registered: April 2003 | |
|
| The_Crowd wrote on Sun, 19 December 2004 23:11 |
Okay, I will step back from total annihilation of your opponent before moving to the next - slightly. If you spend 5 years searching for the remains of your foe without locating any of his worlds AND you have reduced him to 1/4 or less of your total resources THEN you may begin attacking your next target. HOWEVER. You may never be attacking more than 2 players at any one time. So, if you reduce 2 players down to 1/4 or less, blah, blah, then you will have to do some clean up to continue.
|
So by this point IF I can stop you from killing off either of your opponents completely you cannot attack me? Seems counter to the idea of the game. If I choose SD I CAN prevent you from getting to your opponents last planet.
| Quote: |
Hmm. Well I think that killing off two players isn't a certain sign of your ability to defeat the rest. However, when someone has taken out THREE players, then I think we should see where the rest stand and then make a decision about grinding on some more or bending knee. I don't want it to be a free-for-all until that point at least.
The_Crowd
|
By the time any one player has killed two players, forcing the remainder to focus on each other instead of the leaders will ensure that only two kills are required to ensure dominion over the rules of this game.
[Mod edit: fixed quote]
[Updated on: Tue, 21 December 2004 06:58] by Moderator
Report message to a moderator
|
|
|
|
| Re: XENOPHOBE - New Game |
Mon, 20 December 2004 19:39 |
|
| The_Crowd |
| Petty Officer 2nd Class |
Messages: 55
Registered: September 2003
Location: Vancouver, WA. USA | |
|
| Quote: |
I didn’t think the proposal I made was terribly difficult, and it would make it less likely that someone was left with nobody attacking them for the first portion of the game.
|
The difficulty with your method is two-fold. One, it requires the player to do more than play Stars!. Two, it requires constant attention from the host. Once again, the K.I.S.S. rule needs to take precedence.
| Quote: |
Allowing someone to lay claim to a planet with a single colonizer is not my idea of rational. By setting a minimum level of population required to be considered a colony (I suggested 2xPrivateers) you are ensuring a more normal colonization period. With the rules you currently have I would build nothing but colonizers secure in the knowledge that I cannot be pop dropped on before I get enough colonists there to make the planet a viable colony.
|
This goes back to what Dogthinker had to say regarding warfleets. You are assuming that players will manage to get colonizers out to worlds without outside interference. Although that MAY happen, I would bet that the players are going to send out armed ships to prevent just such an occurance. I think it's going to be difficult to colonize without an armed escort, and IMO if you manage it then you deserve the world.
| Quote: |
I would agree with this IF you were allowed to bomb/packet/pop-drop on those planets to remove the population, but you cannot according to the rules. This still make it somewhat pointless to attack a base or a fleet unless it is causing problems for you of attaining your primary goal, or causing you to not be able to colonize unused planets. Of course by the time you have the firepower to attack a starbase there will be no un-colonized planets unless there is a minimum required population to keep the colony safe from pop-drop. By your rules a player can park a minesweeper within a LY of my planet to sweep minefields and I have to let him do this.
|
I guess I don't understand your rebuttal. How, exactly, would your proposed modification NOT cause a massive amount of 'cheating within the rules'? By simply colonizing a world next to one that you want that is occupied already, you are free to blow it to bits regardless of who controls it. This COMPLETELY undermines the premise of the game. Tell me I'm wrong.
| Quote: |
This sounds simple in theory, but not in practice. I will just fly at high warp back through a minefield, and your ship will follow at the same warp speed. Or if your trying to keep SD fields in check by this method, He just has to move back into an exploding field.
|
Your issue has to do with minefields being dropped near your own worlds. If you allow a player to drop minefields to fly back into, and don't sweep those as well, then you are going to take a hit.
I could twist the rules wrench another notch by allowing MLs to be targeted when they move to within a certain number of LY from a world with a starbase and drop mines, but I think instead I'll table it until I can get a concensus from the players on the issue.
| Quote: |
I agree that a PP must be able to target colonized planets, but not with the intent of removing the colonists. This is difficult to ensure, particularly if a planet is “Held” by only a couple colonists. If every planet is colonized in the universe, the PP MUST target a colonized planet. However, Unintentional bombing should not be tolerated at all. Bombers should have orders set to attack only the primary target.
|
Since PP uses packets to scan, accidents are going to happen if someone actually plays it. (Why anyone would is beyond me...) But if that player intentionally targets an occupied world not controlled by their primary target, then they are breaking the rules. Regarding Bombers, yes you are of course correct. Any bombing action except that done incidentally by an AR colonizer must be specifically directed at the primary target only.
| Quote: |
So by this point IF I can stop you from killing off either of your opponents completely you cannot attack me? Seems counter to the idea of the game. If I choose |
...
Report message to a moderator
|
|
|
|
| Re: XENOPHOBE - New Game |
Tue, 21 December 2004 03:14 |
|
| Carn |
 | Officer Cadet 4th Year |
Messages: 284
Registered: May 2003 | |
|
While it seems possible to make rules, that govern this idea for most situations in stars, i do not think the minel laying/sweeping problem can be covered in any satisfying way, while keeping everybody enemy, but only realy attacking the prime target. This has to be governed by common sense and by a moderator, if that fails.
What rule, not needing checking, would allow one to keep SD exploding mine fields out of own territory, but protect the SD minefields in his territory from being removed, if both do not have each other as prime target?
Carn
Report message to a moderator
|
|
|
|
| Re: XENOPHOBE - New Game |
Tue, 21 December 2004 12:11 |
|
| icebird |
 | Chief Warrant Officer 3 |
Messages: 178
Registered: September 2003
Location: In LaLa land... | |
|
| Quote: |
I guess I don't understand your rebuttal. How, exactly, would your proposed modification NOT cause a massive amount of 'cheating within the rules'? By simply colonizing a world next to one that you want that is occupied already, you are free to blow it to bits regardless of who controls it. This COMPLETELY undermines the premise of the game. Tell me I'm wrong.
|
So I colonize a world within 100 ly of one of yours, and send a warfleet to take your planet. If I get the orbit (you are allowed to defend it, it is within 100ly of one of your worlds), I can then sit there with my warfleet stationary to keep the orbit under my control as long as I want- I can never take the world away from you, and it will tie up as many warships as it takes to keep a starbase down as many times as you build it, and I also have to keep you from building a fleet to take the orbit back from me with your other planets. I can't remove or reduce the population until you are my enemy- it seems an awefull waste of resources just to stop ship production (you can still research from that planet) for just one world from someone who can't even attack me!
Doesn't seem like good strategy to me, and I don't think people will do it very often at all. It would, however, solve any problems regarding minelayers and such, and allow for a much greater possiblity of defense for anyone being attacked.
-Peter, Lord of the Big Furry ThingsReport message to a moderator
|
|
|
| | |
| Re: XENOPHOBE - New Game |
Tue, 21 December 2004 13:40 |
|
| Kang |
| Senior Chief Petty Officer |
Messages: 87
Registered: April 2003 | |
|
| The_Crowd wrote on Mon, 20 December 2004 17:39 |
This goes back to what Dogthinker had to say regarding warfleets. You are assuming that players will manage to get colonizers out to worlds without outside interference. Although that MAY happen, I would bet that the players are going to send out armed ships to prevent just such an occurance. I think it's going to be difficult to colonize without an armed escort, and IMO if you manage it then you deserve the world.
|
I am actually concerned more with the early colonization phase of the game where most people are sending out coloizers and transports and the primary means of ensuring domination is getting a sufficient population on the planet to prevent an easy pop-drop by invaders. Conflicts usually happens at those planets midway between two players, but sometimes very close to one and a good distance from the other to whom that planet may have an ideal climate.
When a player arrives and colonizes with only a colony ship and there is no follow up, and the next player arrives in the next couple of turns with a colony vessel and maybe a privateer full of colonists, under your rules he is screwed, but in a normal game he would just drop the colonists on the planet and it would be his. At this phase of the game, scanning is not very good, pen scanning by other than JOAT is non-existant, and warfleets are not economical. Small amounts of warships are sometimes built to guard under populated planets, or to prevent colonization of desired worlds, but more often those planets are contested by pop-dropping. Even if you do get a warship to his colonizer fleet, there is a chance it will get through. Do you really think it is fair if you shoot down his escort and a privateer to concede the planet because his colony ship was the fleet that got through and now you have to allow him to have a planet that may be within a turn or two of your HW and 4 or 5 from his because he has 2500 colonists on it?
Under your proposal, it would be stupid to try and populate your best colonies until you have at least placed a colonizer on as many planets as you can inhabit, and then fill out your colonies at your liesure.
By considering any planet with less than a viable population to be free to drop colonists on you are ensuring a more normal colonization phase.
Kang
Report message to a moderator
|
|
|
| |
| Re: XENOPHOBE - New Game |
Mon, 27 December 2004 14:02 |
|
| Kang |
| Senior Chief Petty Officer |
Messages: 87
Registered: April 2003 | |
|
| The_Crowd wrote on Fri, 24 December 2004 17:41 |
So Kang, what you're saying is that because it's not standard practice to build armed vessels early that you think it's not going to happen. That the players aren't going to be smart enough to put up some kind of early defense in the territory they want to control.
|
Actually I've seen players attempt to prevent intrusion into their space during the early game by building scout killers to chase down all comers. While this does work to some extent, when your rule is that any colony once established must be left alone, I only need to get one colony ship past you to take control of the planet from you. That is not too hard to do.
| Quote: |
I don't know about you, but the people who've turned in race files so far don't seem like the type to just allow another player in close.
|
I don't know what type of people have turned in race files because I don't know who they are.
| Quote: |
My suggestion is that if you play then plan on not only building armed vessels early to protect your territory, but that you also turn up the Elec. right away so that you can see them coming.
|
With the current rules HE sounds very good, particularly if they only have one person attacking them. I would not have to build armed vessels or research elec early.
If your getting that many people signing up, then post your final list of game play rules and tell me that these are the rules you will use and that if I don't like it then I shouldn't play. You have that right, and I'll certainly respect that.
Kang
[Updated on: Mon, 27 December 2004 14:03] Report message to a moderator
|
|
|
|
| Re: XENOPHOBE - New Game |
Wed, 29 December 2004 20:17 |
|
|
|
Topic moved to the Bar since I have been informed that the game will not take place. Left it intact since there was discussion of how a specific set of rules might be used.
- Kurt (moderator)
Report message to a moderator
|
|
|
|
Goto Forum:
Current Time: Wed May 08 00:13:33 EDT 2024
|
Members
Search
Help
Register
Login
Home
