Home » Stars! Clones, Extensions, Modding » FreeStars » New Tech
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| Re: New Tech |
Thu, 28 October 2004 14:56   |
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 BackBlast |
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Messages: 215
Registered: February 2003
Location: A Rock | |
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Seems we dealing with present concepts of naval combat extrapolated into space with this fighter question. I think of naval combat as basically a balance between speed and range, with range being paramount in actual battle. Defence usually takes a back seat but is constantly experimented with. This is why modern naval engagements are different than pre-WWII, etc... Battleship range: 25 miles, Carrier + airplane range: 300 miles? Plenty more for modern planes. What if I had a battleship that had weapons with 300 mile range, then it would be competative again against a carrier. There is a problem with this, the curvature of the earth, enter missles to fix that. The modern "battleship" of old is now the nuclear submarine (Russia did build some missle cruisers too once upon a time). It's origins are very different, but as the mainstay of modern naval fleets, this is the role it fills.
Of course, stars! is hardly 'realistic' in it's interpretation of space battles and very much focused on gameplay. A sensible thing to do as it is a game rather than an excersize in pontificating futuristic space battle.
Now, back to the case at hand.. Why fighters as a battle board addition? We've already limited the maximum range of weapony to the battle board, therefore to simply add another token adds nothing but a new label to the game. Their primary function is to increase the speed and range of naval fleets. Unless we change the model the best way to keep in tune with the carrier/fighter model is to send out your 'smaller ships' to skirmish away from your larger fleet. Sweep mines, kill those pesky scouts that are trying to find you. If you wanted to give a specialty ship a real role, maybe give these 'fighters' a movement of 4+ on the battle board and warp 16 capable in space with a range of ~250 ly or range X (50? 150?), possibly being able to ignore mines or travel significantly faster though them. Maybe against heavily armored units give it some possibility of strike/escape with single use weapons. Nice little possibilities against skirmishers, largely not useful in main fleet style battles. Maybe let them strike/return in a single year (stealth terror anyone?)? Maybe let them have a pre-battle battle (interceptors) and try and take out a sensitive target before the main battle starts (energy dampener?). All of these ideas definatly operate outside the standard stars! ship model of warp 10 limit and would give fighters a strategic use as a weapons delivery platform rather than just another small ship. Unless there is some advantage to speed and/or range, in real space (not the battle board), I think the fighters should be omitted (it's just another small ship on the battle board). Even with some of these ideas they would be manufactured at Planet X and transfered to some specialty ship that can hold refuel/repair them. This way you could dock them at planets too, giving them a few extras for defending the empire against maurading invaders. Maybe with a given network of carriers and planets a fighter-only strategy could work like the ability to gate your fleet everywhere does (though it can work offensivly and in deep space too). They could utilize some new propultion technology that only works on smaller craft like flight did for the plane over the boat. Very high propultion requirements. I dunno, some of this might add to the overall chess-match like stars! war between empires without upsetting game balance too much. It seems that Stars! already kind of sort of does this with the small ships, skirmishers, etc. They really don't have a speed or range advantage that might make them 'fighters'.
Another way it might could be done is have a 2nd line of super warp engines with special properties and weight restrictions. Like a warp 12-16 engines, 3-5 warps faster in minefields, limited to say 50kt in weight on a ship - no cargo. Mildly exotic and pricy for mass production, cheap engines makes that more reasonable for a strange oxymoronic race. This might nicely integrate the 'smaller' ships and the fighter idea into the current stars! model. Seems that frigates would fit the bill nicely for a light fighter. Perhaps cap battle speed with the max warp of the engine.
As for space based manufacturing, perhaps something very restrictive along the lines of an automated manufacturing plant that only knows how to make *one* thing/ship. Build a mobile plant that has some mineral storace capacity and can build a particular ship per year, given it has the minerals to do so, and not have it pop based but mineral based. You could technically run an empire with no pop, kind of a unintelligent space based factory. Nubian shipyards and remote miners? heh
Some ramblings...
BackBlast
[Updated on: Thu, 28 October 2004 15:31] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: New Tech |
Thu, 28 October 2004 18:17 |
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| sborden |
 | Crewman 3rd Class |
Messages: 8
Registered: October 2004 | |
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Actually, I believe fighters might be an interesting idea. Keep in mind that SE uses fighters already, and their method seems acceptable although not in total harmony with their game concept.
To make it fit into Stars! consider:
1: Fighters should not have warp capabilities (i.e., use thrusters, not warp engines).
Reason A: Although fuel is light, look at the fuel capacity of a BB and explain the submicrominiature amount of fuel carried. One obvious explanation would be volume: Fuel is light, but very large in volume. Another is: It is very complex to hold the antimatter fuel. Both of these would probably rule out warp capabilities. And if you look at real carrier-based fighters with long range (maybe 1,000 miles with drop tanks--anybody with better/real numbers?), remember that long range is only at cruising speeds, and not battle speeds. Fighter range at full burner is REMARKABLY short.
Reason B: Weight: The size of warp engines is LARGE. We're using the concept that fighters fit into a ship, and are not as big as one.
Reason C: We want these to be specialized weapons, not CHAFF. Why build a carrier if the figters can get there by themselves?
2. Fighters move at 2~3X battle speed (i.e., up to 5 squares), but for limited time (i.e., they actaully USE fuel in battle).
3. Keep fighter weapons range SHORT (i.e., 0 for direct fire or 1 for missile weapons).
4. Fighters ALWAYS move first.
5. Start with base initiative equal to starbase.
6. Limited weapons damage.
7. Require high & special tec (due to miniaurazation).
8. Require special battle orders.
9. Require "hangar/flight deck" components: Hangar for storage, maybe Flight Deck for launch. Limits rate of launch/recovery based on number of flight decks. Requires special slots for installation.
10. Take battle board time to launch/recover.
11. Allows carrying ship/base to start/remain in a FAR corner of the battle board (moves, if possible, only to avoid damage), thus allowing the fighters to engage first (great for AR stations...)
12. Can be based on-planet if hangar/flight decks are built (new facility type)
13 and on and on and. . .
Oooh yeah! Lots of possibilities. . . Now, who wants to help program it?
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| Re: New Tech |
Sat, 30 October 2004 16:13 |
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| EDog |
 | Lt. Junior Grade |
Messages: 417
Registered: November 2002
Location: Denver, Colorado, USA | |
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Requiring battle board time to launch (recovery shouldn't be an issue - it either happens after the battle is over or you don't have anything to recover or anywhere to recover it to) would allow for another interesting strategy.
Fast, high-initiative ships would become very important in engagements involving carriers, because there would be the chance of destroying the carrier before it launches its fighters. It's similar to dealing with chaff, but in this case the "chaff" is an actual combat threat.
I don't think there needs to be more than one kind of component for a Carrier, and in fact don't think the Carrier should be a separate hull at all. The component should be a mechanical component (there should also be an orbital component for starbases). Let's call it just a Fighter Bay. Say it becomes available around Con 10. Fighters are inclusive with the Bay and are not separate components, instead improving tech the way planetary defenses and scanners do. It would be very interesting to have fighter technology be related to average tech level, since there is justification for at least five different techs (and if you're going to include five, you might as well include Bio as well). Each Fighter Bay holds a specific number of Fighters - let's say a squadron of 12 for argument's sake. You can stack Fighter Bays in a mechanical or anything slot. This allows a lot of flexibility for carrier designs and brings a new validity to the Galleon especially. The Orbital Fighter Bay should be a serious threat to incoming forces - say it holds 10 squadrons - 120 fighters - but at the cost of losing a gate or mass driver slot. Again, you have to decide what is more important (and Stars is all about making those types of strategic decisions). This makes starbases much more defensible (and they should be - a common argument I've seen is that people want it to be harder to take down orbital installations).
So that's my 2c, anyway.
EDog
http://ianthealy.com
Born, grew up, became an adventurer
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| Re: New Tech |
Sat, 30 October 2004 17:53 |
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I believe he wanted two different components for fighter bays so there would be a tradeoff on launch times. You go for simplicity, he goes for making more strategy on tradeoff between having lots of fighters or fewer but being able to launch them faster.
For orbital, it would be nice if they could have protection similar to chaff for ships, (which fighters may provide if they can shoot down or get in way of missiles). However IMO it would also be nice if gates weren't so powerful.
IMO things are a little thrown off when you can send almost your entire fleet through 300/500 gates to defend any corner of your empire. Making starbases stronger would only add to this (as gate harder to take out).
Perhaps making gates wimpier or changing order of events so gating occurs after combat would reduce the power of gates.
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| Re: New Tech |
Sat, 30 October 2004 19:19 |
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| sborden |
| Crewman 3rd Class |
Messages: 8
Registered: October 2004 | |
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You are correct. I am trying to force a compromise to not have the carrier be a no-brainer. Launch all you have into one battle and possibly lose them all? Remember, once they're gone, you need to get more. So unless you've got a *lot* of freighters carrying a few spare fighters (say THAT 3 times fast), you could find yourself empty as the other guy's reinforcement arrives for next year's battle.
And, if it's any comfort, fighters are basically bulky cargo requiring bulky components on ships. Sooooo, a carrier would probably be too heavy to go through a gate--and if it could, it would have to to so without the fighters (unless, of course, you're IT, but then, isn't that why you pick IT anyway?  )
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| Re: New Tech |
Tue, 30 November 2004 20:18 |
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On the fighter issue: I believe that the existing Scout hull represents a fighter quite well, but that the ease with which capital ship missiles can hit them is unrealistic. Perhaps give the Scout hull high innate jamming vs. capital ship missiles (but not torpedoes).
This would make Scouts armed with high tech weapons (in large stacks, which fighters really should be) a danger for specialized Missile boats, and create a greater demand for Torpedoes.
This same innate jamming could also possibly accorded in lesser amounts to Destroyers and Frigates, to make fighter design a little less one dimensional, and give older hulls an actual combat role.
This innate jamming could also drop off as ship weight increases, preventing people from running around with Arm Scouts terrorizing missile ships.
Target attractiveness would need some looking at as a result, I think.
The Dopelar Effect:
The tendancy for stupid ideas to seem more intelliegent when they come at you rapidly.Report message to a moderator
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, also this carriers would add new dimension to -f races. Also people should thing twice before picking OBRM since now 90% of all races have OBRM. Also building robots should be very expensive in Germanium and resourrces.
