Home » Primary Racial Traits » HE » HE - usable?
| Re: HE - usable? |
Thu, 16 January 2003 10:42   |
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Yes pop attacks are this races most troubling occurance IS/WM , but thats if they can get to the planets ... My HE games usually have smaller well defended areas of control and i feel the extra minerals and resources allow HE's to build effective "pocket" fleets fast! that can quickly add up ...
But hey all races have weakpoints too so these are not perfect but they come pretty close IMO of course!
Oh and did i mention my HE's bite! ... with all six mouthparts
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| Re: HE - usable? |
Thu, 16 January 2003 17:21 |
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 zoid |
 | Ensign |
Messages: 348
Registered: December 2002
Location: Murray, KY - USA | |
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| TheJorrus wrote on Thu, 16 January 2003 07:30 |
Half the pop yes but! Only Half the pop needed get maximum resources too!
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I think you missed my point altogether. You're still assuming (like I always did) that an HE will produce twice as many colonists as any other PRT given the same growth rate if all other factors are equal, which isn't true.
<EXAMPLE>
HE: Growth rate = 10% (20% growth rate)
CA: Growth rate = 10% (We could use any other PRT for comparison purpose but we'll use CA because it is 10 points cheaper than an HE PRT)
No OBRM involved for either prt -
Habitat value of a planet for each race 100%, both planets at 25% population cap for max growth. That's 125,000 for the HE, and 250,000 for the CA.
HE growth per turn is 125,000(.2)=25,000
CA growth per turn is 250,000(.1)=25,000
There's no advantage there. Not for the HE anyways. If all other factory and mine settings are the same he's just producing half as much while maintaining the same growth rate. To change his economy, habitat, or any other settings to gain an advantage, the HE must give something else up, and the CA in question can do the exact same thing, get the same number of points to make exactly the same changes as an HE and gain the same outcome. No advantage for the HE, but disadvantage? You betcha!
Now let's assume that each of the aforementioned PRT's get the same number and quality of planets, and there is nowhere left to expand to, so both races just sit and allow their planets to grow. The CA ultimately will have twice the number of colonists, twice the factories and twice the mines, twice the resources and twice the minerals, and stargates too. At this point one wonders why the HE prt cost 10 points more and not several hundred points less. Because the metemorph hull and the flux capacitor are the only REAL nice things the HE gets, and that just isn't enough.
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Which by my math means is a cancelation ...Factories can be 50% better , 50% cheaper ,operate 250% more HE spend less rousources to maximise output! |
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[Updated on: Thu, 16 January 2003 20:29]
I'M NOT AN EXPERT AND I'M OFTEN PROVEN WRONG. TAKE THAT INTO CONSIDERATION WHEN YOU READ MY POSTS.
Math?  Ummm, sure!  I do FREESTYLE math.Report message to a moderator
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| Re: HE - usable? |
Thu, 16 January 2003 23:56 |
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No, you see HE do indeed have half 'real growth' but then again AR can have triple 'real growth'. The important thing is the growth can be put into hab values, so the 20% has a small value compared to the 10% HE, then the HE lives at twice as many places and produces same amount of colonists. The tri-immune is an extreme example and also can sometimes buy super factories et cetera (depending on stats but usually).
Don't say but CA can insta-form to so many planets, I think CA are an unbalanced race, compare HE to JoaT, the second strongest economy-race(IMHO).
Email me as ----jeffimix@----yahoo.com----
(remove dashes)
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| Re: HE - usable? |
Fri, 17 January 2003 00:40 |
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| zoid |
| Ensign |
Messages: 348
Registered: December 2002
Location: Murray, KY - USA | |
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| jeffimix wrote on Thu, 16 January 2003 20:56 |
The important thing is the growth can be put into hab values, so the 20% has a small value compared to the 10% HE, then the HE lives at twice as many places and produces same amount of colonists. The tri-immune is an extreme example and also can sometimes buy super factories et cetera (depending on stats but usually).
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Normally at this point I concede an argument, deferring to those whose opinions I respect, but this time I know I'm right. I've been test-bedding races like crazy, and it's crystal clear to me; I just don't understand why nobody else gets it. True, an HE player can sell his growth down the river and make a tri-immune race with max factories, max mines, 50% research costs down the board, and a couple nice LRT's too. At 3% growth there's no need to sacrifice anything else. My point is, every other race can do exactly the same thing. You can take any prt down to a 3% tri-immunity at the same cost, and you'll produce the same number of colonists as an HE, but your planets are twice as large, and you still get stargates. (If you don't believe me, try an HE and another PRT with exactly the same growth and other settings in one testbed for comparison.) Does anyone not want a HW that's twice as large? If you could start with two HW's wouldn't that be a nice advantage? Comparing the HE to any other PRT, the non-HE may as well be getting two-for-one on every planet that he inhabits. Having to colonize twice as many planets to get the same result is in no way a good thing, especially without the stargates. Imagine me telling you in-game that your borders are going to have to be redefined because I'm an HE and therefore entitled to twice as many planets as everyone else. I'm sure that'd go over like a ton of bricks! 
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Don't say but CA can insta-form to so many planets, I think CA are an unbalanced race, compare HE to JoaT, the second strongest economy-race(IMHO).
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Well, comparing a JOAT to the HE makes the HE come out even worse. The JOAT costs 35 points less t
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I'M NOT AN EXPERT AND I'M OFTEN PROVEN WRONG. TAKE THAT INTO CONSIDERATION WHEN YOU READ MY POSTS.
Math? Ummm, sure! I do FREESTYLE math.Report message to a moderator
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| Re: HE - usable? |
Sat, 18 January 2003 04:29 |
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Um testbeds are'nt quite the same as the real thing.
I tried a 6% joat and got so creamed it wasn't funny anymore , but the HE seems to work for me ... oh well i guess we will see
*Grins defiantly*
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| Re: HE - usable? |
Sun, 19 January 2003 00:59 |
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| zoid |
| Ensign |
Messages: 348
Registered: December 2002
Location: Murray, KY - USA | |
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OK! I JUST TRIED IT AGAIN, AND I'M... *gulp*
 wrong? (where's the tiny fonts at?)
I should have seen my error earlier. My mistake was just putting both populations at their 25% cap and not counting person for person. Well, I'm used to being wrong, I'm just sorry I was so convinced I was right. That's the really embarrassing part. It's just not fair that I never get to be right.
One of these days somebody who wants to know anything about Stars is going to look for threads by freakyboy, Stalwart, Edog, and all the other well-known brains here for advice on a topic and failing to find it, they'll say to themselves "Hey, wait a minute! Let's see what Zoid says about this!" Then finding what I've written on the topic they'll say "Well, Zoid says it's not a good idea to do this, so that's probably the best thing to do."
 The village idiot, that's me. Glad to be of service.
Oh anyways, the test results did indeed show that person for person, the HE has twice the growth up his 25% cap. After that you have to move on to another planet to keep it up.
* observes the smiling and nodding crowd who already knows, and shuffles off the soapbox *
I'M NOT AN EXPERT AND I'M OFTEN PROVEN WRONG. TAKE THAT INTO CONSIDERATION WHEN YOU READ MY POSTS.
Math? Ummm, sure! I do FREESTYLE math.Report message to a moderator
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| Re: HE - usable? |
Sun, 19 January 2003 03:31 |
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| Sotek |
 | Chief Warrant Officer 2 |
Messages: 167
Registered: November 2002 | |
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Right.
It's what makes HE even remotely useable.
It can reach development population quickly from a low start.
But... the lack of gates cripples the hell out of it, and the other problem is...
A direct PGR for hab trade? Not a win. You need twice as many worlds, you're in trouble if it comes to a popdrop war, and those twice as many worlds include a /lot/ more low-value worlds.
People rectify by going tri-immune? Helps. Some.
Certainly it's better than, say, a tri-immune JoAT, who's /NEVER/ going to get planets up there.
But if it was a jump game, or at least one with a fixed (largeish) starting pop? I'd try the JoAT over the HE. (or... possibly IT. Mm, gating pop.) After all, once you're up and running as a tri-immune anything, you're going to /keep/ growing well.
After all, x worlds produces one new one a year... so. But I'm not claiming a tri-immune non-HE is very good, nor am I claiming the tri-immune HE is. Merely that in a 'normal' game, the HE's close enough to viable to compete.
Although, IMO, as something really slower than an HP.
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| Re: HE - usable? |
Sun, 19 January 2003 12:07 |
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Thats why 4-5% growth is so popular. While you can make a 6% an average tri-immune (and can push 7% but that's hard to make viable) 4-5% give you HP-ish factories with 1000/res creature production, then you can sometimes afford better tech/LRTs or similiar since at 4% you get a lot of points (I like stting factory cost way down low to make factories catch population faster than any other race so I can research, build ships, et cetera)
Also, the Settler's Delight is such a powerful engine I believe that you can stick to the mini-colonizer hull and not have to take IFE (low growth, use cargo podded ships for freighters). Since the fuel mizer isn't the greatest combat engine out there you shouldn't have a proble mas HE without IFE.
That's my belief on HE. Oh and yeah, with doubled growth and half pop you get same mass people results.
I will also say that while HE I believe are a moderately difficult race to play as well as other races they are still as good (even tri-immunes) as most non-econ based PRTs. They do get crippled from no stargates, but thats only unlivable in medium+ universes, you can plan around it marginally well in toher universes. Besides, it means they are good allies for IT and SS.... SS can overcloak the non gating fleets so its harder to run around them, IT for the obvious reason.
Tri-immune HE make good allies, they can afford to give you surplus planets.
Email me as ----jeffimix@----yahoo.com----
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| Re: HE - usable? |
Wed, 05 February 2003 06:30 |
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| BlueTurbit |
 | Lt. Commander
RIP
BlueTurbit died Oct. 20, 2011 |
Messages: 835
Registered: October 2002
Location: Heart of Texas | |
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A stalwart optimist counterpoint:
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An issue I see with HE is this:
1) To get high techs takes a lot of resources
2) For an HE to get the same resources takes 1.5-2x as amany planets
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Required resources applies to all races. Don't HE often have more cheap techs than most races? Cheap techs vs. expensive tech makes up for many differences doesn't it? -f races have to get more planets also, and they usually have 2.5 to 3.5 cheap techs. I never knew that HE monsters were once feared because they had trouble getting resources? What exactly were they feared for? 
Let's not forget that diplomacy and trade are relevant factors too.
Twice as many planets an HE is fully capable of doing (the words bi-immune and tri-immune ring a bell here) and is key part of their nature that makes them different from other races. Maybe that's why they are called Hyper Expansion? Although some would say that the Hyper applies more to the player than the race due to the increased micro management.
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3) Ship production for an HE is diffuse due to large numbers of small worlds required for #1
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Everybody's ship production is diffuse if they are successful with respect to expansion. The more planets you have the more diffuse your production is. Yet most races try to get as many planets as they can to increase production and to increase the chances of winning. That is what the wars are all about. Getting more planets and taking away planets.
HE's big problem is that per planet the resources are lower so it takes longer to build the same number of ships per planet. But given twice or more planets this balances out in the end results and often outweighs the opposition due to the large total production available.
The primary difference is the other races have gates and combine them faster into fleets in the case of battle groups. Again we are assuming that HE are always playing solo without friends and allies. I find this to not be true in most games. I can't recall many games where solo wins were the case. Most often it was two or more ally wins.
Even in "one winner" games there are often allies that prefer to help winner than lose by themselves. Unfortunately the outcome of some game plans is changed by the fact that some players just play to play, and not to win. So they will help anyone just to be on the winning side, even in a one winner only game scenario.
The good HE races that had I have met didn't have ship problems, rather the opponents were the one's that had ship problems - his ships. I lost a game to CA monster once. I had a good second place position, and the game was posted as "one winner only". So I saw this CA muncher rapidly expanding and said to the others "It's time to unite", with little success. One player, in particular, was helping this CA. So I pulled out my diplomatic skills and I said to him: "Fool, only one can win, why are you helping CA monster. You should be helping the rest of us." He he he answered: "Fool, he has more gifts than you. And I don't play to win anyway, just to have fun." Well, the fool lost with more gifts than he might have won with if he had helped us. And the CA creamed everybody. 
And lets not forget that twice the planets also means a whole lot more minerals for building. Another strong factor when adding up the war fleet productions.
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4) No gates makes gathering such production difficult And it uses lots of fleets per turn.
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Again we are discounting the fact that allies have gates and these can often be made available for use, given that diplomacy skills are up to snuff. My very first experience with HE, I recall, I was his ally and he used my IT gates. I was still relatively beginner and we won the game. By the way, mostly because of him and his power. He certainly was pumping out the power fleets more than the rest of the galaxy. At the end he was complaining about all the work though.
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5) Fleets are capped at 512,
6) Thus an HE w/70 planets kicking out ships (equivalent to you HG design with 30-35 worlds doing so) uses 70 fleets per turn.
7) If it takes 3 years to gather fleets (warp 10= any/300 gates of an IT), then an HE will have 280 fleets in use just for gathering their ships.
leaves them extremely vulnerable to being outskirmished in front of an advancing fleet that forks well...
9) also leaves them as a mind-numbing excercise of merging fleets together with tons of room for player error and production to get screwed up as a result.
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This is stretching a bit, which is what people often do when they don't like something. It actually doesn't take 3 years to gather most fleets. If they are within a hundred light years of each other they can be combined in one year at warp 10, thereby reducing the fleet numbers substantially the first year after production and this can often be repeated with further merges in successive years. Again, with good allies, most of these suppositions are no longer relevant as the use of gates is possible.
And good HE players have mastered the use of automation, thereby substantially reducing their micromanagment levels and errors.
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10) leads to another weakness:time constraints. If you are fighting an HE you could potentially cause the other player to make huge mistakes by giving him too much to look (skirmishing/minelaying/feint, etc.) at in the 60 minutes or so they have to play the game each day. If your opponent has a few hours per day to spend on their turns, you can keep it up and cause them to get really worn down quickly (3-4 hours of Stars! per day for two weeks wreaks hell on a marriage).
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This makes little to no sense to me. "Giving him too much to look at in the 60 minutes or so they have..." An equal amount of time and energy is required to counter large numbers of fleets and planets. Have you ever played against a good SD? He had to spend a lot of time to manage his many minefields, and you had to spend a lot of time countering those fields in order to attack him or to defend against an aggressive SD. I don't think either of you came out ahead with respect to time.
The more you put out, the more you receive, and vice versa.
As to marriage... Stars! is not designed to improve marriages, nor are any addicting computer games for that matter. The same could be applied to football/sports or any other junkies. Perhaps most good HE players are single. Perhaps many Stars! players are single. Perhaps many Stars! players are single because they played Stars! Who knows?
But points like marriage and "I have a real life too" are rather mundane and not worthy of galactic commanders. Space exploration takes a long time and sacrifices have to be made. If you don't have the time, don't play the game. There are lots of things people don't do because they don't have the time. Stars! playing should be no different.
I would recommend that people with marriage time constraint problems only play in games with 48 or even 72 hour turn rates. 2 hours/3 = 2/3 hour per day. Problem solved! See how easy that was. I am amazed that people can calculate so much details in Stars! games and yet not figured out basic division math in marriages. What really gets me is when people complain about time and marriage and are playing three or more games at a time. Duh! Am I missing something here, or are some elevators just not going to the top floor?
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Not my favorite race by any means...
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I don't think I would ever try to talk you into it. It's not mine either.
IMO opinion the biggest problem an HE has is micromanagement. This can be greatly reduced by experienced players with good automation.
The biggest problem most people have in marriage is management. This can be greatly reduced by experienced players with good communication.
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| Re: HE - usable? |
Mon, 24 February 2003 17:30 |
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| BackBlast |
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Messages: 215
Registered: February 2003
Location: A Rock | |
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| freakyboy wrote on Thu, 16 January 2003 10:36 |
HE are easy as mittens to invade too.
An IS breeder fleet will be laughing all the way.
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Until your breader fleet meets a small pack of Metas built to kill freighters (higher init than BB, few missles for the kill, high movement, no defences). *bam* One big, expensive resource down the tube, with the HE laughing as your big fleet was halted in their tracks. Meta morph is the perfect ship for killing your enemies' anti-planet ships (freighters, bombers).
Suddenly, even with a superior force, you can't kill his worlds fast enough to _hurt_ him.
BackBlast
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| Re: HE - usable? |
Tue, 25 February 2003 13:37 |
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| yucaf |
 | Master Chief Petty Officer |
Messages: 100
Registered: December 2002
Location: India | |
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| BackBlast wrote on Mon, 24 February 2003 17:30 |
| freakyboy wrote on Thu, 16 January 2003 10:36 |
HE are easy as mittens to invade too.
An IS breeder fleet will be laughing all the way.
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Until your breader fleet meets a small pack of Metas built to kill freighters (higher init than BB, few missles for the kill, high movement, no defences). *bam* One big, expensive resource down the tube, with the HE laughing as your big fleet was halted in their tracks. Meta morph is the perfect ship for killing your enemies' anti-planet ships (freighters, bombers).
Suddenly, even with a superior force, you can't kill his worlds fast enough to _hurt_ him.
BackBlast
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Huuhgh? Metamorph with higher initiative than BB? What do you mean? And also, have you seen well defended superfreighters? They get good shielding and can jam quite well too. And the IS knows that his ships are precious. The escort will have a high initiative, anti-suicide design. He will probably use the same tactic as with bombers: don't expose them until the orbit is secured. You kill the starbase and orbiting ships and lay a minefield, then you can go into destroying the planet. And a well played IS always keep a good stock of flying orgies, he won't expose his only weapon to be destroyed in one shot.
How should we say that MM are BAD warships?
Now to be back at Freakyboy comment, yes it's true that HE planets are easy to invade, however, there are many of them and they colonize like crazy. Can you invade faster than they can retake their worlds? (or are you letting all this population on those reds to prevent that?) Keeping all those planets defended against recolonization can seriously divide your offensive capabilities. Just a thought.
HE's have been for several years the killer race, just look at the old posts on the Newsgroup. Everybody feared them and at some point nobody wanted to play them because it was shooting season  when they were discovered. However the PRT was unfortunately modified, and without the gates, it has become a ve
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 Re: HE - usable? |
Wed, 26 February 2003 00:27 |
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| BackBlast |
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Messages: 215
Registered: February 2003
Location: A Rock | |
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| yucaf wrote on Tue, 25 February 2003 13:37 |
| BackBlast wrote on Mon, 24 February 2003 17:30 |
| freakyboy wrote on Thu, 16 January 2003 10:36 |
HE are easy as mittens to invade too.
An IS breeder fleet will be laughing all the way.
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Until your breader fleet meets a small pack of Metas built to kill freighters (higher init than BB, few missles for the kill, high movement, no defences). *bam* One big, expensive resource down the tube, with the HE laughing as your big fleet was halted in their tracks. Meta morph is the perfect ship for killing your enemies' anti-planet ships (freighters, bombers).
Suddenly, even with a superior force, you can't kill his worlds fast enough to _hurt_ him.
BackBlast
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Huuhgh? Metamorph with higher initiative than BB? What do you mean? And also, have you seen well defended superfreighters? They get good shielding and can jam quite well too. And the IS knows that his ships are precious. The escort will have a high initiative, anti-suicide design. He will probably use the same tactic as with bombers: don't expose them until the orbit is secured. You kill the starbase and orbiting ships and lay a minefield, then you can go into destroying the planet. And a well played IS always keep a good stock of flying orgies, he won't expose his only weapon to be destroyed in one shot.
How should we say that MM are BAD warships?
Now to be back at Freakyboy comment, yes it's true that HE planets are easy to invade, however, there are many of them and they colonize like crazy. Can you invade faster than they can retake their worlds? (or are you letting all this population on those reds to prevent that?) Keeping all those planets defended against recolonization can seriously divide your offensive capabilities. Just a thought.
HE's have been for several years the killer race, just look at the old posts on the Newsgroup. Everybody feared them and at some point nobody wanted to play them because it was shooting season when they were discovered. However the PRT was unfortunately modified, |
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| Re: HE - usable? |
Wed, 26 February 2003 11:24 |
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| BlueTurbit |
| Lt. Commander
RIP
BlueTurbit died Oct. 20, 2011 |
Messages: 835
Registered: October 2002
Location: Heart of Texas | |
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| BackBlast wrote on Tue, 25 February 2003 23:27 |
| yucaf wrote on Tue, 25 February 2003 13:37 |
| BackBlast wrote on Mon, 24 February 2003 17:30 |
| freakyboy wrote on Thu, 16 January 2003 10:36 |
HE are easy as mittens to invade too.
An IS breeder fleet will be laughing all the way.
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Until your breader fleet meets a small pack of Metas built to kill freighters (higher init than BB, few missles for the kill, high movement, no defences). *bam* One big, expensive resource down the tube, with the HE laughing as your big fleet was halted in their tracks. Meta morph is the perfect ship for killing your enemies' anti-planet ships (freighters, bombers).
Suddenly, even with a superior force, you can't kill his worlds fast enough to _hurt_ him.
BackBlast
|
Huuhgh? Metamorph with higher initiative than BB? What do you mean? And also, have you seen well defended superfreighters? They get good shielding and can jam quite well too. And the IS knows that his ships are precious. The escort will have a high initiative, anti-suicide design. He will probably use the same tactic as with bombers: don't expose them until the orbit is secured. You kill the starbase and orbiting ships and lay a minefield, then you can go into destroying the planet. And a well played IS always keep a good stock of flying orgies, he won't expose his only weapon to be destroyed in one shot.
How should we say that MM are BAD warships?
Now to be back at Freakyboy comment, yes it's true that HE planets are easy to invade, however, there are many of them and they colonize like crazy. Can you invade faster than they can retake their worlds? (or are you letting all this population on those reds to prevent that?) Keeping all those planets defended against recolonization can seriously divide your offensive capabilities. Just a thought.
HE's have been for several years the killer race, just look at the old posts on the Newsgroup. Everybody feared them and at some point nobody wanted to play them because it was shooting season when they were discovere |
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BlueTurbit Country/RockReport message to a moderator
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| Re: HE - usable? |
Wed, 26 February 2003 23:43 |
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| yucaf |
| Master Chief Petty Officer |
Messages: 100
Registered: December 2002
Location: India | |
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Good points, I had not thought in everything about the initiative you can stuff in MM's. I guess the main drawback is the waste of germanium for kamikaze ships (one use). It has been long since I last played HE.
For the MM, it's true that tri-immune get not worries about the terraforming, however the number of planets is much higher and you still have to manage the mineral concentrations. With another PRT I don't care too much about what to do. Either I decide that it's good enough with some initial amount of population, either I decide to fill it, and then auto-orders kick in. I rarely look at or change that (fact, then mines then terraforming). And the lack of stargates makes it more difficult to distribute the freighters (?) I use to have a pool on a center planet and call them on duty through stargates when the need arises. Not very efficient but reduces a lot MM. I also was thinking in taking care of the 512 fleets limit etc. but maybe I have just forgotten what HE is all about 
I have had to abandon games (to a replacement, not just dropping, hate that  ) due to too much MM but the replacement players seemed happy to take it so I guess it's a very personnel thing!
Cheers,
YucaF
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leaves them extremely vulnerable to being outskirmished in front of an advancing fleet that forks well...
