Home » Stars! 2.6/7 » The Academy » Maximizing Popluation Growth Rate
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| Re: Maximizing Popluation Growth Rate |
Sat, 18 September 2004 00:06   |
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With a JOAT and OBRM, 35% is the money spot. I am unsure if this value changes if you don't have OBRM or if you aren't a JOAT though. You can always find out yourself with your race by picking up colonists at the 35-25% range to find the percent that makes the most people.
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| Re: Maximizing Popluation Growth Rate |
Sat, 18 September 2004 12:01 |
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There was a discussion I was part of on this very subject a while back.
The short answer is 25% is always best for "breeders".
33% or 35% gives you better growth numbers if you consider 1 planet only, but that is never the case. One planet at 25% and one at 50% gives better growth than two at 33%.
I'll try and find the discussion where we thrashed it out.
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| Re: Maximizing Popluation Growth Rate |
Sat, 18 September 2004 12:20 |
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I find that staying at 25% is a big mistake. Even if you get theoertical highest growth rate, you have less colonists, so the growth rate is actually less than at 35% cap. Not only do you grow less, but you operate less mines / factories. Overall staying at 25% just makes you slow down big time. At least this is all my personal experience which is limited to OBRM JOATs at this moment. Here are some numbers from homeworld growth of my 19% growth JOAT OBRM race.
Cap Actual Pop Growth
45% 592200 60400
40% 522200 64200
35% 462200 65600
35% 457200 65800
35% 452200 66000
34% 447200 66200
34% 447000 66200
34% 446900 66100
34% 446200 66000
33% 436200 65900
31% 406200 65800
27% 356200 64200
26% 347200 63600
26% 342200 63300
26% 337200 63100
25% 332200 62800
24% 322200 61300
It can plainly be seen by these numbers that high 34% to low 35% will give you the best growth rate.
Leaving your homeworld at 25% just doesn't give you enough colonists to operate facilites on your homeworld. A 25% cap homeworld gives me 864 resources, while 35% gives 1239, a 44% increase in planet resources coupled with an increase in pop growth. That gives you more resources to make more freighters to keep offloading that pop to keep the growth up high.
I don't see a reason to try to stay at 25% cap.
[Updated on: Sat, 18 September 2004 12:21] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Maximizing Popluation Growth Rate |
Sat, 18 September 2004 12:20 |
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 Joker41NAM |
 | Crewman 2nd Class |
Messages: 12
Registered: July 2004
Location: Longview, TX | |
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Figures, I get an answer (at least, partial) while I'm writing my post.
| Staz wrote on Sat, 18 September 2004 11:01 |
There was a discussion I was part of on this very subject a while back.
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That's probably what I remember seeing when I was searching for this. Trouble is I can't find it again.
| Staz wrote on Sat, 18 September 2004 11:01 |
The short answer is 25% is always best for "breeders".
33% or 35% gives you better growth numbers if you consider 1 planet only, but that is never the case. One planet at 25% and one at 50% gives better growth than two at 33%.
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Well, I'm still working my tactics for that. I generally either let each world "storing" it's own colonists until I get enough for a 100% drop, or shuttling between worlds to get enough for a 100% drop for one of them. Yes, it leads to a good bit of micro-managing.
That's one reason I wanna know the exact percentages; I've printed out spreadsheet tables for the different races (w/ & w/o OBRM) that have varying max pops, and I wanna make sure my numbers are accurate on when the max growth is.
I'm sure somebody can bemoan for me the disadvantages of doing it this way. If so, I'd appreciate a good explanation. I've never been able to get the Repeat Orders to do things right for a "decent" pop-balancing.
| Staz wrote on Sat, 18 September 2004 11:01 |
I'll try and find the discussion where we thrashed it out.
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I appreciate it, especially since I can't find it again.
However, this isn't the post I was looking for. The one I'm thinking of gave the formula for determining growth rate, and the specific percentages that you got max at for different PRT/LRTs (whichever ones make a difference, that is).
[Updated on: Sat, 18 September 2004 12:45] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Maximizing Popluation Growth Rate |
Sat, 18 September 2004 12:59 |
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| SnakeChomp wrote on Sat, 18 September 2004 17:20 |
Leaving your homeworld at 25% just doesn't give you enough colonists to operate facilites on your homeworld. A 25% cap homeworld gives me 864 resources, while 35% gives 1239, a 44% increase in planet resources coupled with an increase in pop growth. That gives you more resources to make more freighters to keep offloading that pop to keep the growth up high.
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You forget that the colonists will be giving you resources anyway, regardless of whether you leave them on your HW or move them.
If you don't have enough freighters to move the pop then it's a no brainer anyway.
As for your table, it doesn't tell the full story. The following is taken from a 19% OBRM JOAT (so max pop 1320000).
Hold Pop Growth Growth%
25% 330000 62700 19
33% 440000 65900 15
50% 660000 55400 8
If you've paid for a 19% growth rate, why would you want to be living with a 15% growth rate on you HW ? Thats over 200 points in the race wizard you have thrown away.
The only reasons to go over 25% population are...
* Planets with really good mineral levels can be filled and turned into production planets
* You have so many colonists you are running out of things to do with them; in this case, fill up planets from the lowest hab up
* You need to quick start vulnerable border planets
[Updated on: Sat, 18 September 2004 13:00] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Maximizing Popluation Growth Rate |
Sat, 18 September 2004 13:09 |
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| Joker41NAM wrote on Sat, 18 September 2004 17:20 |
I'm sure somebody can bemoan for me the disadvantages of doing it this way. If so, I'd appreciate a good explanation. I've never been able to get the Repeat Orders to do things right for a "decent" pop-balancing.
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Doing this exactly with repeat orders is very difficult. I normally only do full on population management when I play IT as I can gate the pop and it makes everything a lot easier.
What I do with IT is find a reasonably central, high mineral world to use as an accumulator. I quickly fill this to 100% and have it building factories/mines/ships. All my high value planets then ship excess population to this planet with repeating orders - "set waypoint to..." then "quickdrop". I have 2 fleets from each planet so every year one is picking up and one is dropping.
Now, the central world quickly fills up beyond 100% capacity, but now rather than having 10 planets with 50k pop to shift I have one planet with 500k excess pop. I can pick it all up and drop it whereever I need it - generally filling up another "producer" world or maybe pop-dropping an enemy.
[edited to fix a typo]
[Updated on: Sat, 18 September 2004 13:09] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Maximizing Popluation Growth Rate |
Sat, 18 September 2004 13:13 |
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| Staz wrote on Sat, 18 September 2004 12:59 |
You forget that the colonists will be giving you resources anyway, regardless of whether you leave them on your HW or move them.
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The resources produced by colonists is obviously not as much as factories. 1 resource per 1000 colonists, or 10 for 10,000 as compared to 10 factories operated by 10,000 colonists which produce 100 resources (at default efficiency). The resources that colonists produce is negligable.
| Staz wrote on Sat, 18 September 2004 12:59 |
If you've paid for a 19% growth rate, why would you want to be living with a 15% growth rate on you HW ? Thats over 200 points in the race wizard you have thrown away.
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Because you grow more colonists that way, have more colonists operating factories and mines on your planet, and have more resources and mining capacity?  Sounds like a no brainer to me.
If you only chose 15% growth rate in the wizard, will colonists still be growing at 15% at 33% capacity? I'm actually asking not trying to be smart here. =P
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| Re: Maximizing Popluation Growth Rate |
Sat, 18 September 2004 13:51 |
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| SnakeChomp wrote on Sat, 18 September 2004 18:13 |
The resources produced by colonists is obviously not as much as factories. 1 resource per 1000 colonists, or 10 for 10,000 as compared to 10 factories operated by 10,000 colonists which produce 100 resources (at default efficiency). The resources that colonists produce is negligable.
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But the same colonists would still build factories on the new planet.
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Because you grow more colonists that way, have more colonists operating factories and mines on your planet, and have more resources and mining capacity? Sounds like a no brainer to me.
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No, you grow more colonists overall by keeping to 25%, until all your planets start to get crowded.
Lets take an extreme example, for illustrative purposes only. You (OBRM JOAT) have your HW and another 100% planet. You could have 25% hold on each giving 126k pop growth total, or 50% on one and 0% on the other, for a total of 55k pop growth. In this case it is obvisouly better to keep at 25%.
You could go for 33% and 17% as a mid-way point, in which case you'd get 65k growth from one and 20k from the other, for a total of 85k growth. Still a lot lower.
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If you only chose 15% growth rate in the wizard, will colonists still be growing at 15% at 33% capacity? I'm actually asking not trying to be smart here. =P
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Nope. All I was saying is that by letting any planet get over 25% you are letting your growth rate drop from it's nominal 19% (or whatever). While it still makes sense to do this in a lot of situations (see my post above), as a general rule you should keep to 25%.
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| Re: Maximizing Popluation Growth Rate |
Sat, 18 September 2004 14:16 |
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| Strat |
 | Petty Officer 1st Class |
Messages: 62
Registered: March 2004 | |
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Yeah that thread came to my mind when I read this post.
As you read through, there is a lot of posts in there about all aspects, from max growth, to growth/resrouce ratios.
-Strat
[Updated on: Tue, 12 October 2004 22:13] by Moderator
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| Re: Maximizing Popluation Growth Rate |
Sat, 18 September 2004 14:26 |
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| Staz wrote on Sat, 18 September 2004 13:51 |
No, you grow more colonists overall by keeping to 25%, until all your planets start to get crowded.
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No, you grow more colonists overall by keeping at 34%.
Numbers from my 19% OBRM JOAT:
34% = 66200
25% = 62800
66200 > 62800 = more colonists at 34%.
It doesnt make a difference if you grow 19% colonists at 25% cap because you simply end up making less colonists at 25% cap.
| Staz wrote on Sat, 18 September 2004 13:51 |
Lets take an extreme example, for illustrative purposes only. You (OBRM JOAT) have your HW and another 100% planet. You could have 25% hold on each giving 126k pop growth total, or 50% on one and 0% on the other, for a total of 55k pop growth. In this case it is obvisouly better to keep at 25%.
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Or you could keep both planets at 34% and have a total population growth of 132k. Since both planets are at 34% cap instead of 25%, there are more colonists operating factories and mines, therefore giving you more of everything (resources, minerals, research). It is obviously better to keep them at 34% instead of 25%.
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| Re: Maximizing Popluation Growth Rate |
Sat, 18 September 2004 14:28 |
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Here's a slightly different question though...
If you find a fantastic planet that's 95% hab and has mineral concs of 80, 70, 90 (for example), what do you do with it ?
The 95% hab means you should hold it at 25% capacity as a breeder.
But the great mineral concentrations mean you should fill up and use it as a production centre.
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| Re: Maximizing Popluation Growth Rate |
Sat, 18 September 2004 14:33 |
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| SnakeChomp wrote on Sat, 18 September 2004 19:26 |
No, you grow more colonists overall by keeping at 34%.
Numbers from my 19% OBRM JOAT:
34% = 66200
25% = 62800
66200 > 62800 = more colonists at 34%.
It doesnt make a difference if you grow 19% colonists at 25% cap because you simply end up making less colonists at 25% cap.
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You are still not taking into account the growth you get on the 2nd planet. Read my numbers again, carefully.
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Or you could keep both planets at 34% and have a total population growth of 132k. Since both planets are at 34% cap instead of 25%, there are more colonists operating factories and mines, therefore giving you more of everything (resources, minerals, research). It is obviously better to keep them at 34% instead of 25%.
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Not a valid comparison, as you are comparing my scenarios which have 660k pop total with yours at 880k total (2 planets at 440k).
Obviously 880k pop is going to grow more than 660k.
And honestly, forget the factories and mines. You will have them on either planet.
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| Re: Maximizing Popluation Growth Rate |
Sat, 18 September 2004 14:47 |
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I took a moment to look back at the original post for this thread, which asked what is the capacity value which maximizes colonist growth rate. 25% capacity does provide the highest growth rate of colonists, at 19% (for a 19% race).
I am arguing however, that while 25% capacity gives you a higher theoretical growth rate, 34% capacity gives you a higher actual growth rate. That is, 34% cap planet will produce more colonists per year than a 25% cap planet, which is why it is better to have breeders at 34%.
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You are still not taking into account the growth you get on the 2nd planet. Read my numbers again, carefully.
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The growth you can get on a 2nd planet will be higher if that 2nd planet is at 34% cap instead of 25% cap, just like the first planet.
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Not a valid comparison, as you are comparing my scenarios which have 660k pop total with yours at 880k total (2 planets at 440k).
Obviously 880k pop is going to grow more than 660k.
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Which is why it is obviously better to keep breeder planets at 34% because they will grow more colonists per turn. It doesn't matter if you have 1, 2, or 3 planets, a 34% planet grows more colonists than a 25% one.
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| Re: Maximizing Popluation Growth Rate |
Sat, 18 September 2004 15:03 |
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| Quote: |
I took a moment to look back at the original post for this thread, which asked what is the capacity value which maximizes colonist growth rate. 25% capacity does provide the highest growth rate of colonists, at 19% (for a 19% race).
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Agreed
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I am arguing however, that while 25% capacity gives you a higher theoretical growth rate, 34% capacity gives you a higher actual growth rate. That is, 34% cap planet will produce more colonists per year than a 25% cap planet, which is why it is better to have breeders at 34%.
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The numbers grown on 1 planet are not important. It is the numbers grown across all planets that you need to worry about.
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The growth you can get on a 2nd planet will be higher if that 2nd planet is at 34% cap instead of 25% cap, just like the first planet.
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Same mistake again - you are comparing apples and oranges. Two planets at 34% will obviously grow more than two planets at 25%, but that is not a realistic comparison. Where did the extra population come from ? A valid comparison is 25% + 25% (for 50% total) vs 33% + 17% (again, 50% total).
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Which is why it is obviously better to keep breeder planets at 34% because they will grow more colonists per turn. It doesn't matter if you have 1, 2, or 3 planets, a 34% planet grows more colonists than a 25% one.
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Yes, a 34% planet grows more than a 25% one - BUT, that doesn't matter, it is an illusion.
For our OBRM JOAT and 100% planet, 25% hold is 660k, 33% hold is 440k. So the difference is 220k of population, and the relevant question is where will that 200k pop grow most. The answer is generally "somewhere else".
Think of it this way - it's better to have 8 breeders at 25% than 6 breeders at 33%.
Why don't you give me some numbers. x planets with hab values h1, h2, h3... and a total population of y. I'll plug them into a spreadsheet and show you that 25% pop hold is best, for any set of numbers you like up until the point that crowding is setting in on all planets.
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| Re: Maximizing Popluation Growth Rate |
Sat, 18 September 2004 18:15 |
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| Downsider |
 | Crewman 1st Class |
Messages: 35
Registered: June 2003
Location: Derbyshire, England | |
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Are we talking testbeds here, or actual real Stars! situations?
The question is, what are you trying to achieve here? Are you going for maximum growth or are you trying to maximize resources through optimising your growth? To me, it would seem to me that 33-34% is best to hold at.
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Or you could keep both planets at 34% and have a total population growth of 132k. Since both planets are at 34% cap instead of 25%, there are more colonists operating factories and mines, therefore giving you more of everything (resources, minerals, research). It is obviously better to keep them at 34% instead of 25%.
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Not a valid comparison, as you are comparing my scenarios which have 660k pop total with yours at 880k total (2 planets at 440k).
Obviously 880k pop is going to grow more than 660k.
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Ok, but what have you done with the 220k pop that would have gone towards getting the 2nd 100% world to 34%? Is it in space not growing at all, or is it on another sub 100% planet, growing less than on the 2nd 100% world? Without specifying what you are going to do with the pop you take from any world, all scenarios are meaningless. Each real Stars! situation is unique and untestable as you cannot say before you start a game where your pop is going to be at any point the future.
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And honestly, forget the factories and mines. You will have them on either planet.
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But you will have more factories and mines where you have more pop and, lets face it, factories and resources are paramount, not colonist growth. Otherwise IS would be far more powerful than it is already.
Keeping worlds at 25% is best in terms of maximizing your colonist growth, but it is not practical in real Stars! terms.
If you keep your HW at 25% as soon as it reaches it and I keep mine at 33% likewise, I will have better economy and research than you over in short term and can make that advantage work for me over the long term.
I am willing to duel anyone who disagrees  
"Violence is the last resort of the incompetent" - Salvor Hardin Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Maximizing Popluation Growth Rate |
Sat, 18 September 2004 18:20 |
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| era42 |
 | Crewman 3rd Class |
Messages: 6
Registered: September 2004
Location: Finland | |
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| SnakeChomp wrote on Sat, 18 September 2004 19:20 |
I
-clip-
Here are some numbers from homeworld growth of my 19% growth JOAT OBRM race.
Cap Actual Pop Growth
-clip-
34% 447000 66200
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25% 332200 62800
It can plainly be seen by these numbers that high 34% to low 35% will give you the best growth rate.
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So at 25%, the 332200 people grow by 62800 (19%).
At 34%, first 25% (332200) grow 19%, the remainding 114800 people (447k-332k) grow by 3400 (66200-62800), or by 2.96%. Quite far from 19%...
Dividing those extra 114,8k people (from 25% to 34%) on 3 (to keep them below 25%) 20% worlds will grow 0.2*0.19=3.8%. Minor, but clear improvement even on crappy 20% worlds. Much more noticeable when you shift the extra people to good greens.
-Era
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| Re: Maximizing Popluation Growth Rate |
Sat, 18 September 2004 18:54 |
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| Joker41NAM |
| Crewman 2nd Class |
Messages: 12
Registered: July 2004
Location: Longview, TX | |
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OK, that's it.
I've obviously hit a nerve that I wasn't aware existed. I'm now asking for one of 2 things:
1) All I want is the equation for how fast population grows based upon Value, Cap, and how PRT/LRTs influence the before-mentioned equation. I don't care about which you think is better, 25% or 50% or 33%. I just want the equations. If you don't have something to contribute on this SPECIFIC question, either shut up or start your own thread.
2) Should people not be able to follow this, I ask that the moderator either lock or delete this thread, whichever it takes. I have no interest in getting into the debate that has kidnapped this thread.
Now, if people listen to me, there should be maybe one or two posts remaining to this thread. You can have your debate on your own time, and in your own thread.
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