Home » Stars! 2.6/7 » The Academy » Conflagurators mark 6 thousand..or so (Race design thread)
| Conflagurators mark 6 thousand..or so (Race design thread) |
Tue, 31 August 2004 03:47  |
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I've been toying with my race design for way too long now so I think its time for some external comentaries on it. I have been experimenting with a sort of HG sort of HP JOAT design that has been my mainstay design since I started playing really. I don't feel that the design has matured yet as I haven't played too many games with it so I feel a constant need to play around with it. What I have at this moment is this:
JOAT
OBRM NAS RS
Grav .18 to 5.36 (centered wide)
Temp -156 to 20 (left shifted)
Rad 45 to 87 (right shifted)
1 in 5, 18% growth
1200, 14/8/18g, 10/3/17
Weap cheap, con normal, rest exp
I usually pick IFE / NRSE with this race but I want to play something different this time, and I get more points not checking either than if I check both. I generally play this race as basically a sleeper until I can max out a few planets, which with this design will produce 4426 resources at a 100% planet. I picked narrow Temp / Rad as I will have high weapons and I will have high energy before prop, to utilize RS.
I've never actually been involved in an early war scenario so I've been free to simply burrow in and grow, so I don't really know what my early war situation would look like. In the games I have played this race, I have always been the early tech leader by a fair margin. Mostly due to not having to build any warships and having big fat worlds pumping 3k into research.
The downsides to this design that I see now are a lack of options when it comes to early war, as I would be mostly focused on growing at that time, and a possible lack of decent transporation at the outset of the game, not having IFE and all.
I took a few minutes to testbed an earlier form of this design that was really a bit different, but seeing as its 3:45am I don't have time right now to give this one a run through.
Anybody have any comments or suggestions? And would not having IFE be a real problem? I don't plan on researching good transportation until my homeworld maxes factories.
[edit]
I'd probably hold off on prop research until I got privateers also, as I would rather not sped 19k germ making med freighters since I need that germ to max out factories faster in order to start research to get the privateers who need the prop which requires the factories.... =P
[Updated on: Tue, 31 August 2004 03:51] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Conflagurators mark 6 thousand..or so (Race design thread) |
Tue, 31 August 2004 06:44  |
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 Carn |
 | Officer Cadet 4th Year |
Messages: 284
Registered: May 2003 | |
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| SnakeChomp wrote on Tue, 31 August 2004 09:47 |
JOAT
OBRM NAS RS
Grav .18 to 5.36 (centered wide)
Temp -156 to 20 (left shifted)
Rad 45 to 87 (right shifted)
1 in 5, 18% growth
1200, 14/8/18g, 10/3/17
Weap cheap, con normal, rest exp
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Going from 1000 to 1200 pop efficiency gives 80 points, while dropping cost from 9 to 8 costs 60, so effictively you reduce pop efficiency to make facs cheaper, which likely results in no faster fac building, but in lower max resources.
Try 1000, 14/9/17g, 10/3/17, that is cheaper by a few points, has more max resources(4461), and will have faster fac building especially with low germ concs, as then lot of mines have to be build from pop resources.
Carn
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| Re: Conflagurators mark 6 thousand..or so (Race design thread) |
Tue, 31 August 2004 11:25 |
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if you ask me it is too much factories for joat => you will lose all Germanium on factories => ne Germanium for a lost nexus. Also it will take you a lot time to build them all.
For me I would not go beyond 16 and I found 14 is ideal with JOAT OBRM.
Here is what I would do
1000 14/9/14g 12/3/13
with thease settings you would generate ~3900 resources on 100% planet which is good enought. Also you will save about 1500 Kt of Germanium per planet.
And on mine setings 12/x/13 is equal with 10/x/15.6 with mineral extraction, but you will have 20% more minerals at the final sum, also your mine will virtualy cost you 2.5 (3/1.2) if you take as reference 10/3/x mine setings.
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| Re: Conflagurators mark 6 thousand..or so (Race design thread) |
Thu, 09 September 2004 14:57 |
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Sorry for not replying to any of your posts but I have been without internet for a few days.
I agree with your comments in regards to no ISB and no IFE and Prop Expensive. It seemed like an OK idea at the time, but we all know how "good ideas at the time" are. 
| Quote: |
Paying for that IFE or ISB is another issue...maybe drop RS to help mitigate the penalty for choosing too many secondary traits (although I really do like RS)
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RS will actually give you points most of the time, even if its a 5th LRt it will cost 7 points. I like the idea of RS, though I haven't had much experience with it. I feel it will fit nicely into my play style as I always try to make gateable ships (300/500 gates) and never use armor, so its just an advantage for me really.
I have done some tweaking as a result of the comments in this thread and heres what I came up with now.
JOAT
ORBM IFE NRSE NAS RS (how typical  )
Grav .18 - 4.88 (wide centered)
Temp -152 - 16 (left shifted)
Rad 49 - 89 )right shifted)
18%, 1/5
1/1000 14/9/16g 10/4/16
Weap cheap, Ener Con normal, rest exp.
1 point left over.
Doesn't look like anything to adventerous or fancy to me, thought it does look to be a bit of a slow starter, at least until some planets max out pop and factories and can then pump research.
I need to start playing with races other than JOAT now. Fun. 
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| Re: Conflagurators mark 6 thousand..or so (Race design thread) |
Wed, 29 September 2004 02:57 |
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I have an alt. version for you.
Proxmen/Centaurian
JoaT
IFE,NRSE,OBRM,NAS,IFE, RS
G .44-4.16
T -56-136
61-99
19% PGR
1/7 overall hab
1/1000
14.9.16g
10.3.18
W,C cheap Rest expensive
IMO, Improvements:
NRSE (points to econ)
19% more growth is always good.
hab change. Narrows it a lot, but gets excellent boots from terraforming.1/7 really isn't that painful w/ this race. Terraforms damn fast.
Far better to concentrate on cheap tech and ignore the normals.
I realize I kept RS w/ exp energy. But that's why you take RS. You're not going to use armor ANYWAY. Might as well make what shields you DO research a hell of a lot more powerful. It saves you a lot on ships and defends your ships well. Besides once you've really hammered through the necessary con and weapons, you'll be able to afford a healthy boost on energy, giving additional boost to hab.
[Updated on: Wed, 29 September 2004 02:59]
g.e.
====
"When the newspapers have been read, the TV sets shut off, the cars parked
in their various garages. Then, faintly, I hear voices from another star.
(I clocked it once, and the reception is best between 3:00 A.M. and 4:45
A.M.). Of course, I don't usually tell people this when they ask, "Say,
where do you get your ideas?" I just say I don't know. It's safer."
-P. K. DickReport message to a moderator
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| Re: Conflagurators mark 6 thousand..or so (Race design thread) |
Mon, 14 March 2005 13:26 |
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| SinicalIdealist wrote on Wed, 29 September 2004 02:57 |
Far better to concentrate on cheap tech and ignore the normals. I realize I kept RS w/ exp energy. But that's why you take RS. You're not going to use armor ANYWAY. Might as well make what shields you DO research a hell of a lot more powerful. It saves you a lot on ships and defends your ships well. Besides once you've really hammered through the necessary con and weapons, you'll be able to afford a healthy boost on energy, giving additional boost to hab.
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Does that mean that when you have your tech set to 75% extra, everything is stronger than it would be at normal or 50% cheaper?
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| Re: Conflagurators mark 6 thousand..or so (Race design thread) |
Tue, 15 March 2005 21:51 |
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| Quote: |
Does that mean that when you have your tech set to 75% extra, everything is stronger than it would be at normal or 50% cheaper?
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To add to Joseph's comment,
having less spent on techs means more on other stuff that should lead to bigger eccon. Bigger eccon can pay for more ships and help narrow tech gap. In some ways tech may actually be ahead, some fields like bio tend to be hard for everyone, which favours the bigger eccon.
More rounded techs that are a bit behind favour horde style tactics... large stacks of lower tech. Lower tech likely won't get first strike, so you focus on surviving the first strike by more hulls with less weapons on each.
For every high tech design, there is a lower tech method to help narrow the gap and win the battle with superior numbers.
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| Re: Conflagurators mark 6 thousand..or so (Race design thread) |
Tue, 15 March 2005 23:49 |
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In my humble experience you shoulnd't try to get by with less than 17 mines operated. A huge pile of resources is nice but if you have no minerals to build ships with it's really not helping. XD
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| Re: Conflagurators mark 6 thousand..or so (Race design thread) |
Wed, 16 March 2005 10:43 |
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| Quote: |
you shoulnd't try to get by with less than 17 mines operated.
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I believe that one is very dependant on how wide your hab is. A power that has wider hab but less pop per planet needs less mines. (More planets to draw from, depletion slower).
As well your tactical style come into play. Some are more into remote mining or trading for minerals... even with only basic remote mining you can do some... or red colonise mine a bit. (Others who love more missile boats and mineral packets need more mines)
If you are good at building mineral lean ships you can get by with much less. In CFLKIAB I was building older tech hord battleships with cheaper engines and beamers... half the mineral costs but much better than half as effective.
Often possible to build higher resource but lower mineral ships to conserve for the nub years (if they ever come).
[Updated on: Wed, 16 March 2005 10:47] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Conflagurators mark 6 thousand..or so (Race design thread) |
Wed, 16 March 2005 15:16 |
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| Carn |
| Officer Cadet 4th Year |
Messages: 284
Registered: May 2003 | |
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[quote title=multilis wrote on Wed, 16 March 2005 03:51]| Quote: |
For every high tech design, there is a lower tech method to help narrow the gap and win the battle with superior numbers.
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BBs against Nubs?
I cannot see how you manage, that your enemy has a 50% advantage or more, meaning, that you have to build 1.5 res and mins per 1 res and min your enemy. And nubs are gateable, while BBs only when reducing the cost efficiency seriously(no heavy engine, no missle, no armor, less weapons).
And that are the problems i see, in case you have equal we tech.
Carn
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| Re: Conflagurators mark 6 thousand..or so (Race design thread) |
Wed, 16 March 2005 19:24 |
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He paid a price to get nubs earlier, you should have eccon advantage. You will have nubs too given time...
Nubs of course are better (except compared to dreadnaughts in certain specialty situations), but not hopelessly so. Nubs only have so many slots... not possible to defend against beamers, missiles, have devistating offensive punch, first strike at same time. Something has to give.
A good combo of beamers, missiles, chaff can fight back, while you work towards your own nubs. Spread out your attack and use a little stealth. Enemy with nubs risks giving away const tech every battle he loses, you don't.
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I cannot see how you manage
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Eccon advantage verses tech advantage. His advantage with nubs does't spill over into minelayers, minesweepers, bombers, etc.
If your growth rate is higher than his for all the time up until he gets nub tech that can easily translate into you being twice as big.
...
PS: to add an example, the conventional beamer nub + few missile nubs+chaff is vulnerable to a combo of first strike sapper beamers, chaff killers, missile boats and chaff (perhaps including specialty shielded chaff). If need be some missile boats can be gatable... for example cheapo galleon with 3 missiles.
[Updated on: Wed, 16 March 2005 19:51] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Conflagurators mark 6 thousand..or so (Race design thread) |
Thu, 17 March 2005 01:04 |
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| Carn |
| Officer Cadet 4th Year |
Messages: 284
Registered: May 2003 | |
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| multilis wrote on Thu, 17 March 2005 01:24 |
Eccon advantage verses tech advantage. His advantage with nubs does't spill over into minelayers, minesweepers, bombers, etc.
If your growth rate is higher than his for all the time up until he gets nub tech that can easily translate into you being twice as big.
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Ok, bombers and so on you have the advantage, but even twice the economy does not seem to help much in my eyes.
| multilis wrote on Thu, 17 March 2005 01:24 |
...
PS: to add an example, the conventional beamer nub + few missile nubs+chaff is vulnerable to a combo of first strike sapper beamers, chaff killers, missile boats and chaff (perhaps including specialty shielded chaff). If need be some missile boats can be gatable... for example cheapo galleon with 3 missiles.
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Doesn't a "conventional" nub have 66-88%jamming and 5 deflectors?
That means beamer BB do the stated damage, while missile ships 37-57% of the stated damage, doubled in case of no shields.
In return beam nubs get 2.5 times damage and missle nubs deal full damage.
Yes i know, you are saying counterdesign and good tactic are still possible, but what if the enemy with nubs also uses counterdesign on tactics?
I do not think that twice the resources are enough if you have far lower tech levels.
I played around with DNs and Nubs in battlesim, so full tech, and DNs needed 20% more minerals and resources to face nubs, but with a lower con tech level situation would get worse. I'll test a bit BBs vs Nubs, when i find the time, maybe the difference is less than i thought.
Carn
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| Re: Conflagurators mark 6 thousand..or so (Race design thread) |
Thu, 17 March 2005 05:29 |
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When you testbed, keep in mind stuff like chaff, fancy shielded chaff, bombers, minelayers, etc don't get boost from nubs, and the lower tech guy will be getting nubs too eventually.
In your current conventional description, the nub missiles are neutralised with chaff including special chaff. You likely get hit with first strike as well across the board. Once your shields are sapped and chaff is gone, the battleship missiles do good damage even with your jamming.
If you want more accurate description post exact ship designs and numbers of each type in your combo fleet.
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| Re: Conflagurators mark 6 thousand..or so (Race design thread) |
Fri, 08 April 2005 19:03 |
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| StarsBob |
 | Crewman 2nd Class |
Messages: 14
Registered: June 2004 | |
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| Quote: |
Yes i know, you are saying counterdesign and good tactic are still possible, but what if the enemy with nubs also uses counterdesign on tactics?
I do not think that twice the resources are enough if you have far lower tech levels.
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As they say, it all depends.
In my last game, I had BBs, my enemy had Nubs. I had more resources, and some strategic advantages. I killed his Nubs because I was able to bring enough chaff along to neutralize his torps before he could neutralize mine, and I had more beamer battleships then he had beamer nubs. Granted, I wasn't behind him in every tech category, but having Nubs before anyone else in the game didn't help him get above 4th place.
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| Re: Conflagurators mark 6 thousand..or so (Race design thread) |
Sun, 10 April 2005 01:47 |
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Well, JoaT's most useful and important feature also lends the race to having an advantage on the negotiating front. It's easier to negotiate when you know more info about everyone else around you. Information is power.
w/ JoaT, you have the ability to produce ultra-efficient, ultra-cheap scouts at all points of the game. These scouts will protect you from cloaked attacks, and will guarantee more success on the offense too.
g.e.
====
"When the newspapers have been read, the TV sets shut off, the cars parked
in their various garages. Then, faintly, I hear voices from another star.
(I clocked it once, and the reception is best between 3:00 A.M. and 4:45
A.M.). Of course, I don't usually tell people this when they ask, "Say,
where do you get your ideas?" I just say I don't know. It's safer."
-P. K. DickReport message to a moderator
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| Re: Conflagurators mark 6 thousand..or so (Race design thread) |
Tue, 12 April 2005 17:28 |
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| Quote: |
Sure, but this thread talks about specific JOAT race design. Partially ... how to get good econ/tech design.
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good econ... good tech... a tradeoff in race design. Having cheap const tech leads to faster nubs but may hurt eccon.
Much depends on the game settings and your style, including diplomacy.
Designing a JOAT in a diplomatic game, I would likely try to have something to offer, whether cheap electronics tech, good mineral settings (so I could sell some) or good eccon/shipbuilding/planet grabbing so I could sell ships or planets if needed.
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| Re: Conflagurators mark 6 thousand..or so (Race design thread) |
Tue, 12 April 2005 19:28 |
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| StarsBob |
| Crewman 2nd Class |
Messages: 14
Registered: June 2004 | |
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| Kotk wrote on Sat, 09 April 2005 05:40 |
| StarsBob wrote on Sat, 09 April 2005 02:03 |
As they say, it all depends.
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Sure, but this thread talks about specific JOAT race design. Partially ... how to get good econ/tech design. 
Other things (that victory may depend heavily upon) like fighting skill, strenght of purpose or charisma do not feel so lot in race design.  
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Yes, but the point of the discussion I was referencing was if good econ / low tech can beat okay econ / good tech at a point where someone else has nubians, and you are in no place to get them soon.
In such a situation, it depends 
You have to determine, based upon your playing style, if you think you can survive this situation. Fighting skill, strength of charism, etc factor a lot into race design - because you need to play a race that enhances your strenghts and minimizes your weaknesses as a player. Personally, I feel that a JOaT, played by myself, could do a good job in most types of games fighting the war in the situation described. My brother wouldn't do as well. He also hates MM, so he'll never play SD, while I don't mind it, and play SD well.
That's also why we'll never have 'the perfect race' - because it won't be perfect for someone else's playing style.
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Something should be repaired there or "the Conflagurators" should be replaced with "the Snails" in name. 
JOAT monster is among leaders with tech and econ. It is easier to imagine you win with it. Appears JOAT monster player has improved strenght of purpose. 
On the other hand menacing JOAT monster with nothing interesting for trade is not so wanted neighbour. Its safe to say that usage of such JOAT takes ingame charisma down. 