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Super-Stealth Strategies v.2.61., by Robert Lee. WAQQ73B@prodigy.com
For Stars v.2.6. You may distribute this document like crazy, as long as
credit is given to the original athor and you don't change anything.
Ideas or errors? Please write.

INTRODUCTION
With the advent of 2.6, the Super Stealth PRT is coming ever more
popular. They now have the power to spy their opponents, which then get
resources added to reasearch, as well as other research boosting skills.
People who wondered what SS's (Super Stealth) advantages were in 2.5 has
now been answered: Research.

Why pick the Super Stealth?

The reasons:
High-Cloaking Potential
Reasearch
Tactics list

High-Cloaking Potential. All your ships get a 50% inherit cloak.
That means you get 50% cloaking for free. With the addition of more
powerful cloaking devices, your ships will be virtually invisible.

Reasearch. You have the skill to exceed at more than one research
level every year. You also have the skills to learn more tech from
salvage. You also have "free" resources devoted to reasearch, thanks to
your spying at your opponents AND friends. This can give you the edge on
research.

Tactics list. Unlike other races which have a "I see you, you see
me" quaility, the Silent are very quiet. Don't plan to be very popular
along the course of the game. Meticulous planning WILL be required. The
Silent get more unique gadgets than any other PRT. Their many other
qualities are basically unnoticed by players.

Beware. The Silent are among the hardest races to play in Stars!
They will do well in a universe where there is plenty of room. The
farther apart the stars are, the better, as it will spread out those long-
range planetary scanners.

TIPS FOR RACE DESIGN
Being one of the hardest races to play, everything little thing
counts in the race design. Resources are still the key to games. The
Silent are resource pigs. They eat them up real fast.
With your reserarch advatages, you won't have to devot as many
resources to it as other races. Try to keep a high hibtability value
with 1 in 3, a growth rate above 12%, and at around 2000 resources when
you have 500,000 people on a planet when it is at max. factories. These
are only my opinions. However, I think that if you can't meet these
minimums, the Silent will be doomed. I have not experimented with low
growth rate SS with lots of habitability.
Since many covert ships will be away for a long time, you should not
pick "No Ramscoop Engines" for this PRT. Additional ships (like Fuel-
Xports) to a covert fleet will lower their overall cloaking.
"Improved Fuel Efficency" will save fuel and help you escape faster.
However, it seems like a real small advantage to me. IT IS SUICIDE to
pick "Cheap Engines" while playing the Silent. DON'T EVER CHOOSE IT!
The Silent are one of the best races to use "No Advanced Scanners".
You will still get the Chameleon and Robber-Baron Scanner, since it comes
with your PRT. However, I know people hate normal scanners.
It will not pay to put Electrical research at 50% lower costs. All
eletrical toys need reserach in another branch of the tech tree, usually
being Energy. My opinion is that those points lost to "costs 50% less"
could of been used for production. I always tend to put Biotechnology at
75% costs more.
Since you are a research PRT, if you take LRT's that inhibit research,
it could be bad. Note the word "could", since I have alaways tried to
aviod "Generalized Research" and "Bleeding Edge Tech" as well as "costs
75% more" coupled with "All 75% start at tech 3". In Stars! it think it
is bad get an advantage and then lose it to some disadvatages. Case
point: have tiny habitablity, and pick Total Terriforming. Sure,
eventually you will own lots of planets, but it takes time to terriform
them, and you don't get big enough terrifomring advantages early on.

TIPS
1. The majority of your fleet does not need to be cloaked. Cloaking
devices take up valuable ship slots. Most warships should not be cloaked
unless they are outfitted with your special tech items. Most ships
recieving cloaks will NOT be doing actual battle. Many players expect
the Silent to alaways be unseen. Sorry, but we only want to be hiding
when we want to be hiding.

2. The Silent are an offensive race. You'll get nowhere by hiding your
ships. If you love peace, you should of played IS. The Silent are not
WM. They don't do a slam fest aginst everybody else. When you play the
Silent, do some nasty things to your opponents, using indirect
confrontation. Use only burte force when you must.

3. Do not try to reveal PRT early on. It is impossible in Stars! to
hide your planets whereabouts, but try to keep your race on a low profile
early on. If your opponents find out what PRT you are, it can change the
way the whole game is played. Don't waste resources on building cloaks
early on. The diffrence between 80% cloaked and 90% is enormus. Only
build cloaked ships when they CAN be cloaked near 90%. This means you
will have to get the Ultra-Cloak if you want to do some serious cloaking.
The Super-Stealth Cloak is managable, but you'll need more numbers of it
to reach 90%.

THE SS GADGETS

1. Depleted Neutronium. Con 10, elec 3, mass 50, res 28, iron 10, germ
2, 200dp.
An armor with built-in 25% cloaking. Much more expensive than just
putting a regular cloaking device on. It's use is intended for cloaking
warships, to save those electrical slots for other purposes. This
armor's dp is just 75 less than the Neutronium amror is, making this a
"cheaper" version of Neutronium armor to use.

2. Transport Cloak. No req, mass 1, res 3, iron 2, germ 4, 50% cloak.
An initial tech toy you get in the beggining of the game. Being very
cheap, this will cloak a ship by 50%, however, it can only be put on
defensive hulls. That means it can be put on freighters, miners, and
starbases, and all-general purpose slot ships. It was intended to
cheaply cloak those hulls. A very cheap version of the Super-Stealth
Cloak.

3. Ultra-Stealth Cloak. Ener 10, Elec 12, mass 5, res 25, iron 10, germ
10, 80% cloak.
Higher on the tech ladder, this is the ultra cloaking device. With
this cloak, your ship designs will be able to get to those high cloaking
levels other PRT's dream of. It's use is somewhat restricted. It is
rather expensive to build just 1. For use for sneaking through enemy
territory. More likely to be used on utility, sneaking, and stealing
ships rather than warships.

4. Pick Pocket Scanner. 4 in Ener, Elec & Bio, mass 15, res 35, iron 8,
bor 10, germ 6, range 80/0.
Only good to empty enemy frieghter's cargo into deep space. Overall,
not very useful.

5. Chameleon Scanner. Ener 3, Elec 6, mass 6, res 25, 4 iron & germ,
bor 6, range 160/45.
The lowest tech penetrating scanner. This scanner will give you the
penetrating scanning advantage early on in a game. With the price being
the cheapest for a penetrating scanner, the built-in 20% cloaking is good
also. Think of if as a cheaper Ferret Scanner. Those two scanners vary
little in scanning ability. I'd use the Chameleon.
Even if you pick the "No Advanced Scanners" LRT, you will still get
this scanner, because it comes with the PRT. The Silent are one of the
best races to use "No Advanced Scanners". However, I know that many
people hate having the majority of their scanners being non-penetrating,
and I know people LOVE penetrating planetary scanners.

6. Robber Baron Scanner. Elec 15, Bio 10, mass 20, res 90, 10 each
mineral, range 220/120.
The very high-tech, very expensive, and the very POWERFUL scanner.
Allows you to steal minerals from ships AND planets. Since planets can't
run away, they are hapless victims who witness the crime, but can't stop
it.
Even if you pick the "No Advanced Scanners" LRT, you will still get
this scanner, because it comes with the PRT. It has a penetrating range
of 120 ly. Overall, excellent!

7. Shadow Shield. Ener 7, Elec 3, mass 2, res 7, 3 iron & germ, 75dp.
As with all shields, it is cheap and mobile. It has a built-in 35%
cloaking. A shield and Stealth Cloak in one. Think of it as a rough
copy of the Bear Neutrino Barrier. It is useful as additional cloaking
for transports and light warships.

8. Rogue. Con 8, mass 75, res 60, iron 80, 5 bor & germ, 2500mg, cargo
500, 500dp, ini 4.
This hull is much better than the Galleon, and is nearly half it's
cost. It's considerably smaller mass allows proper designs to fit
through stargates. It's fuel capacity is screaming high, giving a longer
range to roam. This is truely a great vessel for mobility and sneaking.
The cheaper and better version of the Galleon. I just forget about the
Galleon when I have this.

9. Stealth Bomber. Con 8, mass 70, res 175, iron 55, bor 10, germ 15,
750mg, 225dp, ini 0.
The name stands for this hull's purpose. This hull is basically a B-
17 Bomber hull, except for four things:
a. It has 3 additional Electrical slots. Intended use is for cloaking
devices.
b. It has the SAME fuel capacity the B-52 has.
c. It has exactly half the armor the B-52 has. In a way, the Stealth
Bomber is a B-17 and B-52 hull mix.
d. It costs 25 more resources, and 5 more Germ to build.
Essentially, this is a more expensive B-17 hull, yet in a way a
cheaper B-52 hull.
This hull has excellent use for surprise ambushes on enemy planets.
Since those planets probably have thick defenses protecting them, it
would be wise to use air-to-surface missles for your bombers. Once they
destroy the defenses, factories and mines go next, putting that planet
into a resource depression. Then your cheaper B-17's can come in and
eliminate the populous OR you can slam a mineral packet on the
defenseless planet. A great strategy if you can't afford the minerals to
build a large bomber fleet.
For surprise attacks on enemy planets, these bombers make up the
majority of the fleet cloaking.
Countary to popular belief, the majority of your bomber fleet
shouldn't compose of Stealth Bombers. That is, unless you really depend
on mineral packets to finish the enemy populous. Stealth Bombers are
just more resource expensive than B-17 bombers. If you don't want to
surprise, use the B-17 Bomber hull.

In this final paragraph, I state that many SS toys are actually
"cheaper" versions of another tech part. Since you get the "cheaper"
versions earlier on the tech ladder, they are cheaper to build and you
can use them earlier. Nice, eh?

THE MANY TACTICS
One of the secrets to the Silent is DON'T let your opponent know what
your up to. Try to keep your activities silent. Don't babble to
everybody your intentions. Only babble to your allies. To play the
Silent is to be silent.

1. Spies. These are ships that have penetrating scanners and high
cloaking. They will observe your opponents, without them ever noticing
those ships. They should be cheap, cheap, cheap. It should be possible
to litter the universe with these spies. A great design is a Frigate
with Shadow Shields, three Super-Stealth Cloaks or better, and two
Dolphin Scanners or better. This gives 88% cloaking with a penetrating
scanner range of 118 ly. You'll reach 97% cloaking with Ultra-Cloaks.
The ability to watch your opponents is essential part of the anybody's
game.

2. Covert Invasion. The Silent's cargo does not affect cloaking at all.
There is another use besides keeping a full cargo ships' cloaking intact.
Imagine having troopers storm into enemy planet's unnoticed, killing
all of the inhabitants, then claiming the planet as yours.
Use cargo-carrying vessels that are highly cloaked, and fill them
with colonists. From the tacticful viewpoint, look for a weak enemy
planet, setting it as the waypoint. For waypoint task, set "Colonists"
to "Unload All". This is the cheapest "surprise" tactic, if you can
spare the colonists.

3. Covert Packet Unloading. Keeping some high-cloaked cargo ships in
enemy space, have them on alert for mineral packets. When you see one,
intercept it and unload it. If you wish to keep this activity secret (as
you sometimes should), don't unload it completely. Just leave a meager
few kt in it. If you're lucky, your opponent has filtered out messages
concerning secessful arrival of packets, never realizing their packets
are a few thousand kt short.

4. Pirating. Fancy way of saying: stealing minerals. When you steal,
you (sometimes) benefit yourself, putting the victim at a disadvatage.
The best hull for thieving scanners to be put on is the Rouge.
Your first pirate ships will have Pick Pocket Scanners on them, if
you care to build them. If you use them with the intent of amassing a
fortune of stolen minerals, then you are living a fantasy.
Freighters are usually used to transport minerals from a mining fleet
to a planet. This is deep in the heart of enemy territory, and by then
you will run into mine fields. The other use of Freighters players use a
lot is to move people around. You can't kiddnapp enemy colonists.
If you use the Pick Pocket seccessfully, empty the minerals into deep
space. Unless there is a nearby uninhabited planet to dump the minerals,
that is your BEST option. Taking it back home takes too much time.
When you get the Robber-Baron Scanner, you might feel a rush of
andreniline. Head for those planets and take ALL of one type of mineral.
Taking Germ from small colonies hurts bad. Taking Iron or Bor from
mature worlds hurts real bad. Now you can live that dream of amassing a
fortune of stolen goods. (You might be living it now.) Start with a
Robber-Barron Rouge accompanied by Large Freighters. Depending on the
planet's defenses, you may want to take some escorts to distract annoying
enemy escorts. If you wish to aviod confilct with any Starbases, set the
battleplans correctly.

5. Cloaker Ships. These are ships designed to improve the overall
cloaking of a fleet. This works best when the Cloaker ship is cheap and
has a potential cloaking value beyond 98%. Depending on inital
cloaking and mass, a fleet's cloak may be dramatically improved. An
example of a typical design is a Rouge loaded with cloaking devices.
If you're fleets don't have enough cloaking, do some planet hopping.
Penetrating scanners' ranges are cut by cloaks too. If they don't reach
a planet, then you can hide in the orbit of that planet. In order to not
be spotted, you must make it from planet to planet in one year, sometimes
being very fuel costly.

6. Covert Mine Sweeping. The Silent hate mine fields. They impede your
passing through enemy territory. Design high-cloaked beam ships to sweep
those fields. Try to make the fields as small as possible without being
spotted. These ships don't need to be designed as warships. They should
sweep mines long before any bombing fleets arrive. You're opponent will
alaways know what field is being swept, but not where you are IN the
field.

7. Covert Mine Laying. The opposite of the previous. Design some ships
with mine layers and high-cloaking. Send them into enemy air space, and
start laying. Try to stick around unless an enemy fleet is near you or
coming nearer. It is then time to start laying somewhere else. You will
save lots of time if you start laying somewhere else IN the field.
Possibly the best hull for this tactic is the Rouge. If you ever
wondered why they put mine layer slots on it, you now know.

8. Extending Guerrilla Warfare tactics. Using the tactics listed above,
you are basically playing a Guerrilla War. This section is to expand on
that topic.
For additional terror among enemy colonists, use the additional
tactics:
a. Use Air-to-Surface Missle Stealth Bombers and bomb starbase-less
colonies. This will destroy hard built factories and mines on that
planet.
b. Use cloaked warships, and eliminate enemy mining routes, weak fleets,
and weak starbases. Starting to get the picture?
c. Use hit and run if you want to play pure Guerrilla Warfare. Strike
your weak targets fast and furious. When their better escorts start
approching, it is time to hide agian.
d. Aviod major battles. If you have your cloaked escort fleets thinnly
spread out, then you can't afford losses and damage.
If you want to bash some escorts that are at enemy planets while
wanting to avioding that tough starbase, set the battleplans correctly,
while using the tactic "Minimize damamge to self". This works properly
with torpedo ships. As the enemy charges along, you will blast them
until they get in range.

CLOAKING CHART
This chart has been made so you can judge how invisible your fleet is.
All numbers are mathmatically correct. Note the diffrence between 80%
cloaked and 90% cloaked. For every 10% interval, your range of detection
is cut in half.

| 220 280 320 400 500 620 <--Enemy Scanner
Range Radius
-----|------------------------------------------------------ --------------
-------------
50% | 110 140 160 200 250 310 <--Likely to be
seen. <:-o
60% | 88 112 128 160 200 248 <--Not much
better than 50%.
70% | 66 84 96 120 150 186 <--Will be seen
if close.
80% | 44 56 64 80 100 124 <--Seen if
approaching.
90% | 22 28 32 40 50 62 <--Seen if very
close.
95% | 11 14 16 20 25 31 <--Considered
invisible. >:-)
/^\ \ /
| \__Enemy Scanner Effectiveness Radius___/
|___________Your Cloaking Percentage
Anything 95% or higher is considered invisible. 90% is tolerable in
less colonized space. At 70%-80%, you will likely be seen if you are
approaching their planets. Anything below that, then I can almost
guarantee you will be seen. Note that at 95% cloaking, you are still
VERY hard to see even with the Snooper 620X.

Bug Report!
There is a bug that makes it so when you spy, instead of resources
being devoted to the fields you spied on, it is spent on the current
field your researching. Will be fixed with 2.6a.
There has been a specific bug since Stars 2.5 that affects SS players
only! When you attempt to steal using the waypoint task orders set to
"Load All", you can't steal the minerals when you reach the destination!
It will say something like: "Your fleet tried to load minerals from a
fleet they didn't control at x,y. Their orders have been canceled." You
must take minerals manually by using the transport dialogue, when you are
AT the location of the victim! This was not in 2.0b! In 2.0b, you could
just set the destination to "Load All", and you would take all the
minerals at the beggining of the new turn. I reported it on the WWW
Stars! site comment form thingy, but no luck.
There is yet another bug since 2.5 that affects SS only. When you
view known enemy designs in the Scanner plane, it will always say they
are at least 50% cloaked, even tough they have no cloaks!

CONCLUSION
The Silent are ready to kick (or be kicked by) some interstellar
butts. With the advent of 2.6, their popularity is sure to rise. Don't
just use my ideas up there. Think up some of your own. I would really
hate to live in a country of mindless people who have no innovation.

-Robert Lee
The Shadow Empire

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Some comments as follows:

Quote:

High-Cloaking Potential. All your ships get a 50% inherit cloak. That means you get 50% cloaking for free.

Should read 75%. Perhaps it was 50% cloaking at some stage??? but it's been 75% for a long time.

Quote:

Don't plan to be very popular along the course of the game.

Lol, that's about right. As SS you're very often the first target, especially in more advanced games.

Quote:

Try to keep a high habitability value with 1 in 3, a growth rate above 12%, and at around 2000 resources when you have 500,000 people on a planet when it is at max. factories. These are only my opinions. However, I think that if you can't meet these minimums, the Silent will be doomed. I have not experimented with low growth rate SS with lots of habitability.

Hmmm ... A couple of problems there. 1 in 3 planets will most likely mean some decent planets, but also a high number of small greens and large yellows. Lots of planets is good, but they have to be terraformed and it costs you in the race wizard.

A growth rate well above 12% will be required to survive. 17% or better is the target IMO.

Quote:

Since many covert ships will be away for a long time, you should not pick "No Ramscoop Engines" for this PRT. Additional ships (like Fuel-Xports) to a covert fleet will lower their overall cloaking. "Improved Fuel Efficency" will save fuel and help you escape faster. However, it seems like a real small advantage to me.

Absolutely have to disagree there. There are those that will argue otherwise but IMHO IFE is essential for SS and the reasons are as follows: IFE would give you the FM. Being that SS starts with no Prop tech at all you get the "wonderful and fabulous" QJ5 as your default engine
Even if you research to Prop3 (or get it from others researching it) you're still stuck with a hopeless engine.
DDL7 (prop5) is the first acceptable (non-IFE) engine and it's more expensive than the FM. Furthermore if you choose IFE you get one starting l

[Updated on: Thu, 02 September 2004 12:45]

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Steve1 wrote on Thu, 02 September 2004 09:54

Absolutely have to disagree there. There are those that will argue otherwise but IMHO IFE is essential for SS and the reasons are as follows: IFE would give you the FM. Being that SS starts with no Prop tech at all you get the "wonderful and fabulous" QJ5 as your default engine

For short hops, and scouting, it is fine. You can use frigates with the QJ5 and fuel tanks as boosters and scouts. It is bearable with many races, and can actually tilt the game in your favor later on from the RP points you gain.

Quote:

Now IFE is expensive, there's no doubt, so to offset most of the costs choose NRSE as well - problem solved

No, you are just shifting the "cost" to something else. I'm not saying that IFE and the FM is bad...You just need to look at the tradeoffs involved. Stating that this is the solution, period, doesn't fit all the games you may enter, or ships you may build. Sometimes this is the right solution, somtimes it isn't. All you are doing is closing your mind to a potentially better way of doing things, in some universes/designs.

Most people pick ramscoops with a SS, for simple fuel reasons. Another example is I always use scoops with a HE, until the TS-10 (no gates). Or, I hardly ever take scoops with a IT, but with a -f IT I feel it is a must.

Breaking this down even further, I will always put scoops on Missile boats, if I have scoops. However, I put the TS-10 (if I have it) on Beamers and my Torp boats...

-Matt

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Further comments:

Quote:

Because few players can accomplish this with SS, they will think SS is a weak PRT. SS is not weak. Like any other PRT, it is possible to dominate if you play them right, just like AR.

SS and AR "can be" formidible PRT's to go up against if they're in the right hands, but they're still comparitively weak compared to most other PRT's.
SS has too many points disadvantages to begin with. Some of the toys are fabulous and it's a good fun race to play, but I would ask you this: How many players do you know that have actually won with SS (or AR)?
Off topic - IMHO, the biggest bummer with AR is having a maxed out world attacked by a high initiative suicide fleet and losing 3 million colonists.

Quote:

I have not experimented with low growth rate SS that uses a mass-colonizing strategy like HE.

Quote:

Try to keep a high habitability value with 1 in 3, a growth rate above 12%

I think I see where your idea comes from to have 12% (minimum)growth rate and high availability of green worlds. The thing is a 6% HE (therefore doubled to 12%) tri-immune race would have every planet available as 100% green and therefore no terraforming costs. If you do some testbeds with this 1 in 3 SS race you'll find that the cost is too high for the purported benefits.

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Quote:

No, you are just shifting the "cost" to something else. I'm not saying that IFE and the FM is bad...You just need to look at the tradeoffs involved. Stating that this is the solution, period, doesn't fit all the games you may enter, or ships you may build. Sometimes this is the right solution, somtimes it isn't. All you are doing is closing your mind to a potentially better way of doing things, in some universes/designs. Most people pick ramscoops with a SS, for simple fuel reasons. Another example is I always use scoops with a HE, until the TS-10 (no gates). Or, I hardly ever take scoops with a IT, but with a -f IT I feel it is a must. Breaking this down even further, I will always put scoops on Missile boats, if I have scoops. However, I put the TS-10 (if I have it) on Beamers and my Torp boats... -Matt

Hmmm .....
I can see where you were coming from when you suggested trying non-IFE with an IT race and in truth I might be inclined to test it out in a packed universe, but SS well I don't know about that.

If you take the SS race and select IFE, NRSE and Prop +75% you end up with -3 points.
You then get the very cool FM by researching only one Prop level and receive 15% fuel savings. It easily travels at warp9 unassisted for quite some distance (depending on weight, fuel availability and no. of engines). As already mentioned you also get the IS-10 engine at Prop11 and if you decide to choose Grav immune, you need to research no higher than Prop12 for a long, long, time.

If instead you don't select either IFE or NRSE and you then choose Prop -50% you end up with -72 points.
I'll assume that Prop should be at -50% since you really do need to urgently research Prop to at least level 8 or 9 in the early stages.

So whilst I'm researching Weap or Cons and getting good speed out of my cheap FM engines, your race is needing to focus on prop and furthermore you start with a significant point disadvantage in the race wizard.

I do hear what you're saying when you mention abo

[Updated on: Thu, 02 September 2004 15:31]

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Steve1 wrote on Thu, 02 September 2004 14:19

I'll assume that Prop should be at -50% since you really do need to urgently research Prop to at least level 8 or 9 in the early stages.

I've actually been able to swing it with prop expensive. Yea, it was ugly...but i did it. For the most part, you are correct assuming you need at least Prop normal. The first OK scoop is at Prop 7, IIRC, and it is about on par with the FM. That's doable relatively cheaply.

Quote:

So whilst I'm researching Weap or Cons and getting good speed out of my cheap FM engines, your race is needing to focus on prop and furthermore you start with a significant point disadvantage in the race wizard.

Can't argue, but it hasn't ever hurt me. Remember, the IS-10 is a good engine, but it is expensive in minerals, resources and weight. Plus, you still need to get to Prop 12 to get the OT. That means you've had to research 46k to get Prop 12, starting from prop 1 and at +75%. It will take me 54K to get to Prop 16, if I have it set to -50%.

That's not a huge difference, I'd say. Now, how about that weight, mineral and resource difference? Are the cost in RP points starting to make more sense? How about the 500K difference to get the TS-10?

I was a firm advocate of the approach you are speaking of, up to a few years ago. Funny to say that I had this same argument with more experienced players too. As you can see, I have changed my perspective a bit.

Quote:

I would find it extraordinarily difficult to not choose IFE after selecting SS as my PRT.

Playing SS, I once used a couple fleets to terrorize several races. I think I was able to destroy around 16000 factories, and a sizeable number of colonists. The factories were the main target, tho. Not only was I successful at taking out industry, but in doing so I also made them divert valuable resources and minerals elsewhere. Building and rebuilding factories, defenses, minelayers, scouts etc. cost them *way* more than my 2 fleets cost me (they obviously didn't know what to do,

[Updated on: Thu, 02 September 2004 17:12]

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Quote:

Expensive? in what way?

Expensive as compared to the FM.

I could rehash the what was already said about the whole early germ requirement issue but we've already been down that path.

Quote:

The first OK scoop is at Prop 7, IIRC, and it is about on par with the FM.

Nitpick - actually that's the sub-galactic fuel scoop which, according to my manual, is Prop8.
You'd be better off with the Prop9 scoop IMO.
Either way both of those scoops need Energy2/3 whereas the FM doesn't.

Keep in mind that even though the yellow engine is heavier and more expensive than the Prop9 scoop, it's still more fuel efficient at higher speeds.
I usually find that I can easily trade for Prop11/12, so having it at +75% is not significant. Let's face it, who wouldn't give you Prop12 in exchange Weap12 or Cons12

Getting Prop23 is usually a little trickier, but you can certainly make do with the green engine. Travelling at warp10 before all the ram-scoop races is very cool.
I'm also of the opinion that the EP benefits NRSE races more so than ramscoop races and that only requires Prop13 - one more level than I normally need (until the endgame).

Anyhow, the main points that I'm trying to make is with the SS / IFE (FM) combination I "initially" get the following benefits:

- Cheaper engines
- Faster engines
- More functional engines
- I only need to research one Prop level
- No Energy research requirement
- I get more initial points available in the race wizard than you (by choosing IFE/NRSE/Prop+75% - and that also applies if you choose prop normal).
- They consume no germ to manufacture (more available for building factories)
- I get to focus on the war tech's like Cons and Weap instead of wasting time needlessly researching Prop to level 9 (that can come later).
- Less requirement for fuel boosters / fuel exports (therefore more resources and minerals to devote to other important areas)

I'm of the opinion that with all these benefits, my race gets off to a better start (assuming all things

[Updated on: Thu, 02 September 2004 18:15]

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Steve1 wrote on Fri, 03 September 2004 00:03

Let's face it, who wouldn't give you Prop12 in exchange Weap12 or Cons12

Who ... who. All these NRSE IFE, weap and con cheap rest expensive guys. They dont have it. Its possible to sell prop 9 to them for weapons 12. Similarily electronics 19 one can anytime sell it for weapons or construction 26 and usually for both with different partners.

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Its possible to sell prop 9 to them for weapons 12. Similarily electronics 19 one can anytime sell it for weapons or construction 26 and usually for both with different partners.

If someone tried to offer Prop9 for my Weap12 I'd tell them to get lost. Same with Elec19 for Weap or Cons26.
You must be a damn good negotiator if you can actually achieve this.

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Heh? I am far from expert negotiator but such deals are often offered by the other side.

You got jihads, then you go research construction 13. Or you cntinue with weapons because you know where to buy construction for it.

Meanwhile you poke around where the hell you get these 3 levels of prop for 300/500 gate and i am probably the only one with prop 10 that i took for terra, but thats impossible to trade i can build only prop 9 scrappers. You offer weaps 9? I have weapons 10 probably so i disagree. You say me to research 2 levels more prop? What good negotiator you are to make me research 2 levels of tech i dont need right now?

I got my prop 9 scoop and terra. So you offer weapons 12 for populsion 9 or just shut up. No need to tell me to get lost cause im offering nothing i am simply listening and ready to trade. You can go and put 9k into prop yourself and i can put 9k into weapons myself or we can trade.

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Hi!

Steve1 wrote on Fri, 03 September 2004 05:12

If someone tried to offer Prop9 for my Weap12 I'd tell them to get lost. Same with Elec19 for Weap or Cons26.

Going from elec-16 to 19 it has lowered the germ price of my late game Nub by 12%. Being a weap-cheap-rest-expensive HP at that time, with germ the scarcest mineral, that offered me for FREE 12% more Nubs (or about 150!). I'd call that a good deal. Actually, it was. I've been selling weapons only, and DIDN'T BOUGHT a single level in energy and con above 6-7 and elec from 4 to 16. And I didn't SELL weap-26, I've GIVEN it. Was so big at that time I could afford that.
Eh, nice memories, pitty I couldn't finish that game.
BR, Iztok

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I'm also of the opinion that the EP benefits NRSE races more so than ramscoop races and that only requires Prop13 - one more level than I normally need (until the endgame).

One clarification I'd like to make is that the above statement would have been based on also selecting Grav immune. Upon reflection I choose that in quite a few less than half the games I play, so I can't quote it as an absolute.

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Heh? I am far from expert negotiator but such deals are often offered by the other side. You got jihads, then you go research construction 13. Or you continue with weapons because you know where to buy construction for it. Meanwhile you poke around where the hell you get these 3 levels of prop for 300/500 gate and i am probably the only one with prop 10 that i took for terra, but that's impossible to trade i can build only prop 9 scrappers. You offer weaps 9? I have weapons 10 probably so i disagree. You say me to research 2 levels more prop? What good negotiator you are to make me research 2 levels of tech i dont need right now? I got my prop 9 scoop and terra. So you offer weapons 12 for propulsion 9 or just shut up. No need to tell me to get lost cause im offering nothing i am simply listening and ready to trade. You can go and put 9k into prop yourself and i can put 9k into weapons myself or we can trade.

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Going from elec-16 to 19 it has lowered the germ price of my late game Nub by 12%. Being a weap-cheap-rest-expensive HP at that time, with germ the scarcest mineral, that offered me for FREE 12% more Nubs (or about 150!). I'd call that a good deal. Actually, it was. I've been selling weapons only, and DIDN'T BOUGHT a single level in energy and con above 6-7 and elec from 4 to 16. And I didn't SELL weap-26, I've GIVEN it. Was so big at that time I could afford that.

Now see the trouble with me is that I have these fixed ideas in my head of what things are worth, but in truth I should know better. Every situation is different and I thank you guys for reminding me of that!

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I am testing many SS races in games against the AI. Unfortunately, some SS tactics will not work on the AI.

Um why are you wasting points using SS against the AI?
The AI is so dumb that even if your weaker (other PRT selected - non-cloaked) fleets are targetted, you can easily evade and/or hide behind planets.
The AI can see your colonies just as easily as any other race. It's only your starbases and ships that are cloaked.
SS is a good and fun race, but against the AI a total waste IMO.
On the other hand, an SS race can truly devastate a human opponent.

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