Home » Stars! 2.6/7 » The Bar » Playing against the AI (the fun of it) (Split off from New team game (AVP [Aliens Vs. Preditors))
| Playing against the AI (the fun of it) (Split off from New team game (AVP [Aliens Vs. Preditors)) |
Sun, 15 August 2004 21:55  |
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 LEit |
 | Lt. Commander |
Messages: 879
Registered: April 2003
Location: CT | |
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| SinicalIdealist wrote on Sun, 15 August 2004 21:38 |
Beginner/Novice/Newbie/Newb/N00b (Take your pick.)
Basic premise is that, you've beaten back the AI a number of times, you've kicked its ass on expert. You've even kicked the asses of 8 expert AIs that can ally against you!
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I havn't been able to do that...
I start winning, and then give up, it gets too boring. I'm also much less aggressive when playing against the AI.
- LEitReport message to a moderator
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| Re: New team game (AVP [Aliens Vs. Predators)) |
Mon, 16 August 2004 08:31  |
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| Kotk | 
 | Commander |
Messages: 1227
Registered: May 2003 | |
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Leit just drops playing the AI-s after he see how boring it is. AI-s are worth only as prey animals and the only question is how many turns it takes to kill them. The two AI-s that can possibly do some damage are PP and SS. Rest of them are completely harmless.
[Updated on: Mon, 16 August 2004 08:32] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: New team game (AVP [Aliens Vs. Predators)) |
Mon, 16 August 2004 17:27 |
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| Micha | 
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Messages: 2342
Registered: November 2002
Location: Belgium GMT +1 | |
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| Steve1 wrote on Mon, 16 August 2004 21:33 |
Of course this only occurs if you can be bothered playing that long. I'm inclined to agree with Leit about quitting once you get too far ahead. It gets just plain boring and each years generation starts taking too long to complete. 
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I started Stars! directly PBEM, after playing some time I tried a game against the AI, never finished, too boring, never tried it again.
But for some reason I recently started a tiny game against the AI (I think 6 players or so, already forgot) using a "watcher" race (WM OWW with 15/25/25 factories, 25/15/25 mines, tech all expensive). First turn factories/mines/defenses in the queue and upgraded my base (not a US) every 20-25 years, absolutely nothing else (scrapped starting ships), AI killed my planet around 2510 ... They are no challenge ... 
mch
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| Re: New team game (AVP [Aliens Vs. Predators)) |
Tue, 17 August 2004 01:21 |
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| Carn |
 | Officer Cadet 4th Year |
Messages: 284
Registered: May 2003 | |
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| Ashlyn wrote on Mon, 16 August 2004 08:00 |
| LEit wrote on Mon, 16 August 2004 03:55 |
| SinicalIdealist wrote on Sun, 15 August 2004 21:38 |
Beginner/Novice/Newbie/Newb/N00b (Take your pick.)
Basic premise is that, you've beaten back the AI a number of times, you've kicked its ass on expert. You've even kicked the asses of 8 expert AIs that can ally against you!
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I havn't been able to do that...
I start winning, and then give up, it gets too boring. I'm also much less aggressive when playing against the AI.
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I'm confused... you mean  you can lose against the AI???
Don't remember ever doing that!!
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Its possible with a screwed race design.
I failed with 6% tri immune IS in large universe(8+ AIs) and with OWW PP in huge(15 AI). 
But with any race thats competive in human games its impossible to lose against AI.
Greatest weaknesses of AI are not massing fleets before attack, no chaff, no desire to use latest we tech and no desire to come and attack with full force. I once wanted to test long term performance of AI and played "against" 1 in huge, but however many thousands of years i generated, it never came near my HW and stopped expanding after having 150-300 planets and was still using below we 20 devices.
With some handicaps playing AI might get difficult, though not interesting. Maybe something like 500 left over points or non HE with growth rate of 4%. Maybe if you have to play along Dark Ages rules or so.
Anybody tried AI that way?
Carn
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| Re: New team game (AVP [Aliens Vs. Predators)) |
Wed, 18 August 2004 08:39 |
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It is ironic, but the most challenging AI's I have found are, as you have said, HE and PP; for the reasons given.
The reason it is ironic is because these are also considered the weakest player races... (the opinion of HE is changing)
The Macinti/AR, Turindomes/SS, Rototill/CA and Automitrons/IS are mostly brain-dead.
The Rototills are totally happy to build ships and stay at their homeworld, never doing anything!!! This race, CA, is probably the most deadly of player races.
The Robotoids must be controlled/culled by a massive pop-drop campaign which continues until the homeworld is destroyed.
The Cybertrons must have their main planets destroyed as soon as is possible... then clean up their lesser worlds.
And the lack of a War Monger, or a Space Demolition AI race has always puzzled me....
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| Re: New team game (AVP [Aliens Vs. Predators)) |
Wed, 18 August 2004 10:05 |
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| perece |
 | Crewman 1st Class |
Messages: 20
Registered: July 2004
Location: Moscow, Russia | |
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| donjon wrote on Wed, 18 August 2004 08:39 |
It is The Macinti/AR, Turindomes/SS, Rototill/CA and Automitrons/IS are mostly brain-dead.
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I can't say so about macinti. give em 20 years to develop without touching them, and they can become challenging force. at least if they aren't only one opponent.
I noticed reading this forum that so much stereotypes formed in players opinions regarding "strong" or "weak" traits. but...
Why almost everyone plays using acc-bbs?
this option wrecks "thin-line" PRT balance built in game initially, and AIs.. they also seems be written for non-acc-bbs start. they, even somewhat smart ones like PP, AR and HE, do dumb things in accbbs start. they begin defending their colonies too late, but it isn't too late if no accbbs is used... and so on.
Also I noted that AIs are designed for higher planet/player ratio than humans play usually. Try to challenge them on their ground..
also, I never seen good bombing fleet at any AI. they can, really, build very challenging warfleet (if odds are theirs), they also add some bombers to warfleets.. yes, some... and they never use LBUs.
so... Try playing as Your finest AR designed for play against humans, in med/norm no-accbbs against 4 allying HE/AR AIs, and You'll see who is who...
Not related to AI, but also about accbbs. Try playing without it.
the starting speed gap between HP and HG is not so huge when playing no-accbbs, and PPs aren't so weak. It really doesn't matter that others know Your HW location fom just beginning since they can't build signsificant force in starting 2-3 years. so PP can choose narrower hab and employ their excellent packet scouting to compensate fewer number of planets available. (assuming also slightly higher planet/player than in "normal" accbbs starting games)
CA superiority also punished a bit when others "have time" to do some terraforming.
So I generally consider accbbs start as bad option. It releases You from few boring "starting generations", but it makes many other things worse.
SMTP /Perece/.
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| Re: New team game (AVP [Aliens Vs. Predators)) |
Wed, 18 August 2004 10:37 |
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I realise this is also off topic but I follow perece in wishing for non accbbs games. Not only does it throw off AI, it also has played with which race designs are viable.
I wish instead we just combined several turns into one in beginning.
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Back to AI, I have a brother who is good at strategy games and plays Stars only against AI and has some fun. I believe he cripples his own race, uses some sort of low growth warmonger. He still wins, but has a challenge, he likely quits before game is over.
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| Re: New team game (AVP [Aliens Vs. Predators)) |
Wed, 18 August 2004 15:55 |
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| iztok |
| Commander |
Messages: 1206
Registered: April 2003
Location: Slovenia, Europe | |
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Hi!
| perece wrote on Wed, 18 August 2004 16:05 |
I can't say so about macinti (AR). give em 20 years to develop without touching them, and they can become challenging force. at least if they aren't only one opponent.
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I've given them much more time once, long ago. IIRC it was turn 60-70. They were still producing Super miners with Midget robots, and sending around heavily armored CCs with Beta torpedoes.
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Try playing as Your finest AR designed for play against humans, in med/norm no-accbbs against 4 allying HE/AR AIs, and You'll see who is who...
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Bah! The challenge for the AR are Turnindrones (SS). They are cloaked and come with 10-20 Beta DDs quite early in the game. Makes early expanding a real challenge, as you face usual iron crunch, AND have to build quite some bazooka DDs/CCs to defend your space.
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CA superiority also punished a bit when others "have time" to do some terraforming.
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With less pop terra takes much more time. The CA instaform with ANY number of pop, greater then 0.
BR, Iztok
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| Re: New team game (AVP [Aliens Vs. Predators)) |
Wed, 18 August 2004 17:07 |
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| perece |
| Crewman 1st Class |
Messages: 20
Registered: July 2004
Location: Moscow, Russia | |
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| iztok wrote on Wed, 18 August 2004 15:55 |
Hi!
| perece wrote on Wed, 18 August 2004 16:05 |
I can't say so about macinti (AR). give em 20 years to develop without touching them, and they can become challenging force. at least if they aren't only one opponent.
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I've given them much more time once, long ago. IIRC it was turn 60-70. They were still producing Super miners with Midget robots, and sending around heavily armored CCs with Beta torpedoes.
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Had they only 10-12 worlds to develop on? If yes, that result may be predicted...
| iztok wrote on Wed, 18 August 2004 15:55 |
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Try playing as Your finest AR designed for play against humans, in med/norm no-accbbs against 4 allying HE/AR AIs, and You'll see who is who...
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Bah! The challenge for the AR are Turnindrones (SS). They are cloaked and come with 10-20 Beta DDs quite early in the game. Makes early expanding a real challenge, as you face usual iron crunch, AND have to build quite some bazooka DDs/CCs to defend your space.
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SS AI may be challenging at thee beginning, but they has too poor economy. They can't outperform You, so they can't eliminate You.
they can be nail-in-the-ass, but not a big pain. really.
SMTP /Perece/.
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| Re: New team game (AVP [Aliens Vs. Predators)) |
Wed, 18 August 2004 17:56 |
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I think there are ways to make AI interesting in a real game. For example start with non-bbs and after a player enters his orders on the first turn, the next 10 turns are skipped (only AI players get to give orders)
Then throw in some tech restrictions on humans such as limited to tech 0 components till turn 7, tech 1 components till turn 14, ... tech 5 components till turn 42 and so on. Any initial ship/starbase would have to be scrapped or upgraded to fit restrictions.
Sort of like dark ages but different since you still grow fast, just can't do as much. Probably would need to ban or restrict certain races like SD. May mean small freighters and alpha torps actually have their era. Jihads take till turn 84 to come out. 
[Updated on: Wed, 18 August 2004 18:03] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: New team game (AVP [Aliens Vs. Predators)) |
Fri, 20 August 2004 16:02 |
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| iztok wrote on Thu, 19 August 2004 15:33 |
Those restrictions for "primitive" games are really nasty. IMO whatever you do against non-restricted AIs you'll be simply washed away.
BR, Iztok
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However, ...
Race Restriction slightly more lax...
1000 points left over after race creation,
no fuel pod etc, (still the race growth shift for HE)
may provide some races which would be challenged by the AIs...
say 1:1 players and AIs.
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