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Sounds cool idea! But it is not ritual duel but gangfight so you need to add there some bonus to encourage the fight somehow.

Otherwise they will all buy overcloakers + speed traps + heavies from SD and sit in them skirmishing and waiting others to kill each other.

There are no fixed territories and medium is quite big board so really wimpy can run almost endlessly.

For example if one gets bonus budget ... lets say 30% cost of any killed ships then it will be quite fun game.

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In responce to another comment, your right about the size.. Medium's too big. Small? or Tiny? Which is more appropreate?

"Declare the winner to be the person who collects the most scrap + 2x surviving ships. You'd probably need to redo the starting fleet to value minerals instead of resources."

Well, if I just had a robber barron or pick pocket freighter in orbit and I labled the fleet according to each race, and collect the minerals up in the freighters (you arrive I loot). Hmm actually pick pockets might be pretty cool.. Though I don't want you robbing the bank then. I could make for you ships using whatever ore you've deposited. At each of the sights, and being IT I could just ship the ore about.

"Each player deposits their minerals on a specified planet. Run by a host for each race, don't build any mines and remove all minerals before it starts. The world should not have an orbital, so scrapping a ship doesn't give much. Mo race can have robber barons or remote miners."

Well if to doesn't have an orbital, how am I supposed to build ships for you? (This may require a fair bit of setup, Oh well , I've got the tools for it. At this rate, guess I'll have to keep to hosting it, and just watch the show.)

"This gives a easy way to determine the victor, and also gives some one an incentive to kill ships, and hold the field afterwards. You could give each player a number of freighters that don't count as their fleet."

I could just declare the winner the guy who brings me the most scrap after X time? So... Remote miner, would work for that, but the only worlds you'd not be able to reclaim ore from are mine.

"Instead of giving them elec tech, you could just give them some scanners instead."

I was thinking of standard chaff having imborn scanners, though I can see that's not really nessessary.. How's about you guys all be War Mongers? I mean, it seems a bit more to the point don't you? And yeah, I can give you scanners. Though if your not JOAT then you'll have to make sure you buy them.

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Here's an idea: I could award points for the various metals brought to me. Such as 2pts per Kt of iron (most common ship metal), 3pts per kt of boron, and 4pts per KT of germ (as it's more rare in ships)

I store all of this up in my orbital banks, (super freighters in orbit of a particular world or set of worlds.) And then I just add up the ore given after 50 years or so.

Or, the bank could just be out in space, doesn't much matter I guess. I'm not sure but I think you already get some 30% of the ship's in scrap when they are destroyed.

Might also have to A) replace freighters killed in combat or B) outlaw the killing of freighters via battle orders. Or lastly C) Both outlaw the killing of freighters, and give everyone the chance to have some pick pocket scanners so they can loot the loser's freight fleets after the fight. (Saves me the trouble of replacing freighters.)

I am a bit sad that if I have to tend to ongoing duties as a host race, it naturally means I'm not going to be able to fight in with the other combatant races.. But.. Oh well, less stress for me? I guess.

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Bonus based on orbits controlled sounds quite good idea if bonus based on battles is too difficult to manage.

If the game is modified to make the host races to build ships at no cost then the battles will leave no much salvo afaik. On the other hand if it is not then it will take additional effort to fulfill the bonuses. Of course Host races can build huge reserve for bonuses at start and then continue on with usual game.

As for size... seems that small is best. 800x800 board. Maybe not in battle at turn 1, but you will see most of it at turn 0.

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Micha wrote on Mon, 12 July 2004 09:09

You don't have battle orders to "target each race EXCEPT one",

But you can have 8 split out chaff that each target one unallowed race.

Edit: fixed quote

[Updated on: Mon, 12 July 2004 05:50]

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Kotk wrote on Mon, 12 July 2004 03:49

But you can have 8 split out chaff that each target one unallowed race.

Ewwww..... that's gooood!

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Kotk wrote on Mon, 12 July 2004 11:49

Micha wrote on Mon, 12 July 2004 09:09 You don't have battle orders to "target each race EXCEPT one", But you can have 8 split out chaff that each target one unallowed race.

Good one! That would work.

mch

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donjon wrote on Mon, 12 July 2004 05:51

Kotk wrote on Mon, 12 July 2004 03:49 But you can have 8 split out chaff that each target one unallowed race. Ewwww..... that's gooood!

Yeah, that's something like what I meant, though a bit more than just 8 chaff... I'm not worried about numbers, so it's not any real big deal to make like 1000 Nubians for killing each and like 10 or 20k of chaff. And using 8 fleets of 1000 nubians each to target the unwelcomed interlopers individually.


Also, your probably right about the fleet budget, problem is, it's harder to spend 3 kinds of currency.. However, if it makes you feel better I DO have a happy little formula to determine ship worth which served me well in another game. A Credit system:
Ship Worth Forumla: (i/2)+(b/3)+(g*1)+(RU/4)= <Value in Credits, round up> Again using BattleSim Standard pricing.. This will at least account for ore used as well as resources and stuff.. I've found it to price ships rather fairly. Missle ships turn out to be more expensive than beamers, and so on.

So standard chaff costs 3 credits each... (As an example) It also means I'll have to reduce the number of spending cash down too. In anycase, when the ore is tallied, it's not hard to run the same formula, minus the RU part to determine who earned the most credits in combat. Particularly if they've stored all their goodies each in a single large freighter fleet.

For the sake of sheer simplicity, unused credits at the start of the game will be lost. Why? Cause I don't want any roll over credit problems. Final score is calculated off ore collected (I guess.) I can also, probably, keep few thousand extra freighters around to replace any lost in combat if that happens. Though I'd prefer it doesn't. (also you can still upload to a fleet. So it shouldn't be too bad unless you have more than 32k of minerals to unload on your drop site. )

Using this, I guess Robbers and Miners and Pick pockets are technically acceptable as the real money will be secreted away in places where unwelcomed visitors cannot touch those riches.

Note: As an afterthought, I COULD also add in a final fleet that is told to target armed ships only of the owner race so they don't go hiding their armada under the stealth armada. This way only the freighters could go and deposite ore. However, this would not be so good if Meta Morphs were used. But it would at least mean they'd have to use unarmed freigthers to make deposites. So I guess it's okay.

I'm glad to get such warm feedback on this idea.

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Better no miners just barons. Otherwise some1 will sure try to mine the planets for credits.

If one fleet of yours attacks owner fleet then rest of the fleets of yours will also go after that owner fleet using their battle orders. So better is maybe like Micha said... just make it all visible enough, ban all the hiding/ambushing strategies in collection points and players will use other strategies i trust.

[Updated on: Mon, 12 July 2004 12:22]

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[Updated on: Mon, 12 July 2004 14:00]

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It'll be interesting to see if anyone takes BET

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Captain Maim wrote on Thu, 15 July 2004 02:52

BET isn't an option.. Plus it wouldn't make any difference, I've done this kind of thing before, and though I'll probably have to adjust the starting cash somewhat. I'm sticking to Battle Sim standard prices. In otherwords, Non BET, max tech, full minturization. Keeps things unified and simple from my perspective. People can email me pictures of the ships with credits used and ships desired of each type.

Everyone buys his ships at the start? Or spend only a few cash on chaff/scanners, check out designs and order a counter design fleet?
Or does the game after setup goes straigth to AH? (which means no additional ship building because of no zero cost?)

Quote:

Which PRT would be the most helpful for the combatants? JOAT WM SS (SD) No other PRT's are applicable in this scenario. SD is a tentitive option, not sure if it would be fair to allow it.

If you can buy minelayers I would say keep SD out, first of all a minefield skirmish would probably slow the game down too much, second there's the detonation-immunity bug ...

Quote:

SS is the same case, not sure if it would be fair to allow SS either.

Everybody can buy tachyons, right? Cloaking may be not that important in the game, unless you can kill the ohter his tacyhon ships, which will probably happen at the same time you kill his fleet, so that doesn't matter.

Quote:

JOAT and WM seem to definately be viable options though. Chaff scanners, or super intel capabilities look to make either ideal for this competition. Though overall, I think WM is the superior choice for an all fleet warfare game. If everyrace were WM, I'd just need names and starting fleet requests no race files even.

All ship hulls or other items will be available for every PRT? I mean all being JoaT they can still order DNs? All being WM can they still order minelayers? Maybe even SML or MML?

WM: all fleet compositions will be spotted immediately. That's assuming all toys are available and therefore everybody will have some tachyon penscan ships. This will speed up the game a bit since you don't have to probe eachothers fleets first. You can also see which fleet you can take out and which you can't ...
JoaT: you won't lose your penscans before you lose every chaff ship ...

Every race having the same PRT it does not really matter, all have the same dis/advantages ... But this will be a game all about war monging so I'd go for that PRT!

mch

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I'd rather not wade through the drudgery of design, counter design, design, counter design.. It's just too tedious to do it for everyone. I'm just going to let players come up with the best designs they can think of and let nature take it's course. As for residual credits.. I dunno, I could just stick some comparable ore in your freighters so your now carrying your money bag around with you. I guess that's the same as roll over credits. But at least it gives the chance of said credits being stolen. Or something. I dunno comments? Suggestions?

Hmm.. Your right about the mine layers.. "Detonation Immunity Bug"? Um.. Outside of the SD minelayer hulls.. What do you mean by this? Also maybe someone wants an Energy Dampener? SD stays a host race I think if just for that detail....

I think... Maybe we don't need minefields being deployed by combatants.. Slows things down.. I'd like to see a good clean game filled with fleet violence. Mines are nice but unless like.. The SD host race has a mine field that detonates randomly like a natural stormy nebula (which could be really cool!) I don't see the fun in mine fields come to think of it... Just causes pill boxing. And cloaked fleet or not, a big fat mine field is just too easy to spot.

Welp! You talked me into it.. Combatant PRT is now War Monger.

And I'll probably end up being host and just controling space weather and handing over bonus ships when and if they are found.

You think it'd be more interesting if the players didn't have their fleets all in one place right from the start? Seems like it would I think.

Anyway, thanks for the feedback Micha!

[Updated on: Thu, 15 July 2004 07:40]

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Captain Maim wrote on Thu, 15 July 2004 13:35

I'd rather not wade through the drudgery of design, counter design, design, counter design.. It's just too tedious to do it for everyone. I'm just going to let players come up with the best designs they can think of and let nature take it's course. As for residual credits.. I dunno, I could just stick some comparable ore in your freighters so your now carrying your money bag around with you. I guess that's the same as roll over credits. But at least it gives the chance of said credits being stolen. Or something. I dunno comments? Suggestions?

Let players use it all up and done with it. Set and forget, easiest solution.

Quote:

Hmm.. Your right about the mine layers.. "Detonation Immunity Bug"? Um.. Outside of the SD minelayer hulls.. What do you mean by this? Also maybe someone wants an Energy Dampener? SD stays a host race I think if just for that detail....

MMLs and SMLs are immune to your own detonations, however Stars! checks only for one detonation per turn, so if Stars! sees your MML was in a detonation from your own race it doesn't check anymore for other races, and that check is according to player number which means the LOWER player number mine layer doesn't get destroyed from a higher player number SD's exploding minefield.
Check this thread where Ptolemy and Iztok figured it out ...

Quote:

I think... Maybe we don't need minefields being deployed by combatants.. Slows things down.. I'd like to see a good clean game filled with fleet violence. Mines are nice but unless like.. The SD host race has a mine field that detonates randomly like a natural stormy nebula (which could be really cool!) I don't see the fun in mine fields come to think of it... Just causes pill boxing. And cloaked fleet or not, a big fat mine field is just too easy to spot.

Yup, with minefields things will slow down and the game might actually turn away from the primary idea of fleet battles, turning into skirmish wars ...

Quote:

Welp! You talked me into it.. Combatant PRT is now War Monger. And I'll probably end up being host and just controling space weather and handing over bonus ships when and if they are found.

You sound like you would like to participate instead of hosting. You can always ask somebody else to host ...

Quote:

You think it'd be more interesting if the players didn't have their fleets all in one place right from the start? Seems like it would I think.

Put them in a circle ... hey maybe remap the universe into a circle or Rings. (*ahum* ) Or remove all planets from the centre and make them all fight deepspace etc.

Quote:

Anyway, thanks for the feedback Micha!

You're welcome,

mch

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