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Is this cheating?

Mon, 26 April 2004 11:39

Carn

Officer Cadet 4th Year

Messages: 284
Registered: May 2003

The more players are on board the closer fleets start, so the importance of weapons might change(e.g. chaff+ cap missile ships immediatly in beamer range).
Order of events states waypoint 0 orders happen before battle.
So its possible in defending position to increase the number of present races by simply transferring 1 cheap ship to as much races as you want(if they have free slots). That might make huge difference in some cases, e.g. attacker has lots of missiles and defender has only beamers. I think i remember ships can be transferred to dead races. So if there are enough dead races you set them to friend, transfer ships, win battle due to unexpected position(hopefully) and shot down ships next turn to keep the deads slots free. Also its easy with alive races, as allies would certainly help that way, neutrals might be pleased with seeing ship designs, battle orders and possible tech gain and enemies are your enemies anyway.
Cruel is, that attacker will not know if there are additional races present, so cannot prepare for that.

Can this tactic realy be used with effect?

Is it cheating?

Carn

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Re: Is this cheating?

Mon, 26 April 2004 12:01

mlaub

Lieutenant

Messages: 744
Registered: November 2003
Location: MN, USA

Carn wrote on Mon, 26 April 2004 10:39

Order of events states waypoint 0 orders happen before battle.
So its possible in defending position to increase the number of present races by simply transferring 1 cheap ship to as much races as you want(if they have free slots).

No. Battle happens before fleet transfer. So, you could only do this the turn before, with an ally. Non allies won't take your ships.

Quote:

Can this tactic realy be used with effect?

Is it cheating?
Carn

Yes it can, rarely. Most players don't know how to use it, though. I call it "battle board manipulation" when I post a new game. It is usually only valuable when there is a fundamental flaw in ship arrangement/design of your opponets. Or, you need to start really cose to your opponets missile ships to survive...

-Matt

Global Warming - A climatic change eagerly awaited by most Minnesotans.

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Re: Is this cheating?

Mon, 26 April 2004 12:33

Ptolemy

Commander

Messages: 1008
Registered: September 2003
Location: Finland

Quote:

Can this tactic realy be used with effect?

The other thing you need to know to do anything with this is the location on the battle board that the fleets will start in and which ships are the most attractive. Positions on the battle board are laid out according to player number when there is more than 2 races (there's a description in the Academy about this) - see the following article:
http://library.southern.edu/sahforum/index.php?t=msg&th= 284&rid=343&S=081b551493587609356a83ac820cdcdc&p l_view=&start=0#msg_2094

Ptolemy

Though we often ask how and why, we must also do to get the answers to the questions.

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Re: Is this cheating?

Mon, 26 April 2004 13:20

Robert

Lt. Junior Grade

Messages: 393
Registered: November 2002
Location: Dortmund, Germany

I do not think it is cheating....

And several ways to use it, some examples:

a) Make enemy chaff start close to your base and kill it with
beams (gattlings are nice in this example, high init and hit everything)

b) Make enemy bombers start in range of your base (kill them with ARMs)

c) Attack AR homeworld and start close to his mining fleet.
AR mining fleets are usually heavily armored / jammed ships and more important not in one stack. with gattlings a relatively small fleet can shoot them all down at once. they are usually heavily defended, and you have only one shot. if you have gattlings with high init, and shoot all miners at once, you only need to start close to them...

there are more situations, like if you have beams and the others missles the more player the better...

its a nice tactic, and not more cheating than chaff or something...

Robert

2b v !2b -> ?

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Re: Is this cheating?

Mon, 26 April 2004 14:28

Crusader

Officer Cadet 2nd Year

Messages: 233
Registered: January 2003
Location: Dixie Land

Carn wrote on Mon, 26 April 2004 10:39

I think i remember ships can be transferred to dead races.

I don't remember seeing this (with my memory I have difficulty with my name which is why I carry a library card). Embarassed

Can anybody verify it? I'll start searching other places as well, but thought someone might already have a link.

I'm notoriously lazy.

The Crusader Angel

Nothing for now.

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Re: Is this cheating?

Mon, 26 April 2004 15:41

Robert

Lt. Junior Grade

Messages: 393
Registered: November 2002
Location: Dortmund, Germany

you cant!

if autohost set him do dead, it does not matter.
as long as they got a single ship or planet you can transfer ships to them if you are not set to enemy (you can transfer ships to neutrals!)

Robert

2b v !2b -> ?

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Re: Is this cheating?

Mon, 26 April 2004 16:07

vonKreedon

Lieutenant

Messages: 610
Registered: March 2003
Location: Seattle, WA USA

It's not cheating unless the host has called it out as cheating before hand.

OTOH, it is manipulation of the limitations of the battle engine and, IMO, should be called out by the host, at least to prevent such transfers to races that are not active allies of the transferring race.
my 2 cents

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Re: Is this cheating?

Tue, 27 April 2004 09:21

Robert

Lt. Junior Grade

Messages: 393
Registered: November 2002
Location: Dortmund, Germany

I agree that transfer to drop outs should be restricted.
Only players willing to help should be allowed to alter starting positions... (but in all cases the host has to decide and should be asked before such action takes place).

2b v !2b -> ?

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Re: Is this cheating?

Tue, 27 April 2004 11:34

mazda

Lieutenant

Messages: 655
Registered: April 2003
Location: Reading, UK

I would only consider it underhand if races were turning up in battles that they couldn't get to other than by having ships transfered to them.
Even then there are provisos.
Consider a WM building some ships for an ally ('cause they are cheaper) and then transferring them, or vice versa ('cause they move quicker).
Then they go off and attack someone.
Now both races are only at that battle because of the ship transfer, but I don't see a massive problem with what has happened.

M

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Re: Is this cheating?

Tue, 27 April 2004 16:35

wizard

Officer Cadet 3rd Year

Messages: 279
Registered: January 2004
Location: Aachen, Germany

I think that there is no problem unless players are involved who didn't decide to be there. It is completely okay to show up at a battle when your ally invites you.
And as ship transfer happens after battle, everyone who doesn't want to be there has the chance to just move away...

Andreas

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Re: Is this cheating?

Tue, 27 April 2004 19:01

Dogthinkers

Commander

Messages: 1316
Registered: August 2003
Location: Hiding from Meklar

You could transfer ships to a dead player the year before the battle... They couldn't move away... But this is academic as everybody has agreed that transferring to dead/unwilling players is seriously suspect behavior.

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Re: Is this cheating?

Tue, 27 April 2004 20:09

overworked

Lt. Junior Grade

Messages: 403
Registered: November 2002
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

Dogthinkers wrote on Tue, 27 April 2004 19:01

If "dead" means inactive races than you can transfer given the appropriate relations settings. Races that have been outright eliminated; i.e. extinct, can not have ships transferred to them.

- Kurt

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