Home World Forum: The Academy » Single Immune & Non-Immune

Home » Stars! 2.6/7 » The Academy » Single Immune & Non-Immune

Show: Today's Messages :: Show Polls :: Message Navigator
E-mail to friend

Single Immune & Non-Immune

Wed, 17 March 2004 00:46

Strat

Petty Officer 1st Class

Messages: 62
Registered: March 2004

What are the pro's/con's of each?

Thx,
Strat

Report message to a moderator

Re: Single Immune & Non-Immune

Wed, 17 March 2004 01:33

iztok

Commander

Messages: 1207
Registered: April 2003
Location: Slovenia, Europe

Hi!

Strat wrote on Wed, 17 March 2004 06:46

What are the pro's/con's of each?

Immunity: usually very expensive (300-500 RW points), but gives 100% hab in that field ==> no costs to teraform it. End result is better planets on average ==> faster start. Recommended for AR, -f, or short/highly competitive games.
No immunity: saves 300-500 RW points ==> better econ, tech... , but slower development. Recommended for games where capacity counts more than speed (50+ planets per player, slow tech games...).
my 2 cents

BR, Iztok

Report message to a moderator

Re: Single Immune & Non-Immune

Wed, 17 March 2004 09:21

Kotk

Commander

Messages: 1227
Registered: May 2003

Non-immune designs have usually quite wide and quite centered hab, so they mostly compete with each other for the same planets. They can get decent resources out from their initial fair territorial share but it takes more investment. That makes them often use isolationistic strategy with fixed borders.

One-immune has usually the non-immune values shifted away from center by some so it is less pain for them to trade planets or intersettle with neighbours. They get their few good planets quickly up. Their initial territory is usually not giving them enough resources to stay competive in the long run. That makes them to have more expansionistic strategy with more open borders with neighbours.

Report message to a moderator

Re: Single Immune & Non-Immune

Wed, 17 March 2004 09:22

Hyena

Master Chief Petty Officer

Messages: 109
Registered: January 2004

If you're AR, pick an immunity that requires tech you won't pursue as acticely.
Example: Let's say you have cheap energy, construction, and weapons.

Since you have expensive prop, and gravity terraforming requires prop tech, going for gravity immune would make sense.

Report message to a moderator

Re: Single Immune & Non-Immune

Wed, 17 March 2004 10:25

vonKreedon

Lieutenant

Messages: 610
Registered: March 2003
Location: Seattle, WA USA

Quote:

One-immune has usually the non-immune values shifted away from center by some

This is an interesting discussion for me since I have yet to play an immune. I had thought that the preferred race design was to center the non-immune habs to get the most planets (unless Rad is one of the non-immunes). Is this incorrect?

Report message to a moderator

Re: Single Immune & Non-Immune

Wed, 17 March 2004 10:51

Hyena

Master Chief Petty Officer

Messages: 109
Registered: January 2004

There are many ways to go about setting hab range. Immunity is great because all of your planets will have a higher growth rate (If you're tri-immune, all planets are 100%)
The only general rule you should keep in mind is to make sure your hab ranges are at least fifteen clicks away from either of the edges. If you have TT, (or are on a team with a TT CA) make it thirty clicks.
This way, you have a bigger range of yellow planets.

Report message to a moderator

Re: Single Immune & Non-Immune

Wed, 17 March 2004 11:40

Kotk

Commander

Messages: 1227
Registered: May 2003

vonKreedon wrote on Wed, 17 March 2004 17:25

I had thought that the preferred race design was to center the non-immune habs to get the most planets (unless Rad is one of the non-immunes). Is this incorrect?

Most people take gravity immune, IT-s take often temperature immune, radiation immune is less common (but i have played it couple of times). Probably they mostly think "greedily" like you described. There are no "correct" recipe how to always win the game. One trick that helps is to let the most greedy people to fight each other and watch from side. Laughing

It is easier to win if your best planets are the ones that others do not want. Wink

I for example think like this:
At gravity hab edge there are 10 clicks of planets that have half smaller probability to occur and half bigger probability to be uninteresting for your neighbours. Nod

At temperature hab edge there are 10 clicks of planets that have half smaller probability to occur and quadruple bigger probability to be uninteresting for your neighbours. Wink

At radiation hab edge there are planets that have no lowered probability to occur but have increased probability to have good minerals. Also they are uninteresting for about half of your neighbours. Smile

Least importantly ... shifting the habs from center gives up to 50 race wizard points. Very Happy

Report message to a moderator

Re: Single Immune & Non-Immune

Wed, 17 March 2004 17:44

Strat

Petty Officer 1st Class

Messages: 62
Registered: March 2004

Kotk wrote on Wed, 17 March 2004 07:21

One-immune has usually the non-immune values shifted away from center by some so it is less pain for them to trade planets or intersettle with neighbours. They get their few good planets quickly up. Their initial territory is usually not giving them enough resources to stay competive in the long run. That makes them to have more expansionistic strategy with more open borders with neighbours.

Well, I am working on a AR race design, and from my research, I can see that AR are pretty much on thier prime in the 'long run'..

I also know that AR's die easily when targeted..

Why would a One-immune hab set-up be recommended for AR if it restrics them in both cases?

Isn't it a bad idea to have planets spread all over? Away from protection?

Isn't also important to try and have many good planets to settle? Harder to kill if you have many planets..

Does one-immune mainly good Hab %? I can see how a Non-immune would give you more planets, but many would be low green and such. In which case, from my limited understanding, a 1-immune 2 narrow would have less planets.. but those green would generaly have higher %?

Why would you want to do one-immune if it hurts on the long run, and the long run is when AR can do its thing?

Thx for answers guys, I'm quicly learning a lot about what it takes to design an effetive race.

Strat

[Updated on: Wed, 17 March 2004 17:50]

Report message to a moderator

Re: Single Immune & Non-Immune

Thu, 18 March 2004 05:25

iztok

Commander

Messages: 1207
Registered: April 2003
Location: Slovenia, Europe

Hi!

Strat wrote on Wed, 17 March 2004 23:44

Why would a One-immune hab set-up be recommended for AR if it restrics them in both cases?

Because ARs get their resources way differently than other races. The formula is:
planet_hab% * sqrt(pop * en_level / res_divisor)
The result is: double your pop or energy tech level and you get 1.44 more resources. Double you hab% and you get twice the resources.

An immunity makes one environment variable always 100%, and requires only 2/3 of terraforming costs, thus making an AR bigger and faster.

If you can't improve hab, you can get more resources by improving energy level, but you face diminishing returns with each new level (going from 5 to 6 gives sqrt(6/5)=9.5%, from 15 to 16 gives sqrt(16/15)=3.3%. The other great source is better orbital. The greatest increase you can get is by building Ultrastation instead of Starbase (Space Dock) that doubles (quadruples) the space for pop giving you 1.44 (2.0) more resources as pop grows. IMO taking ISB LRT is a must for any (but very low growth) AR race.

BR, Iztok

[Updated on: Thu, 18 March 2004 06:06]

Report message to a moderator

Re: Single Immune & Non-Immune

Thu, 18 March 2004 11:36

Kotk

Commander

Messages: 1227
Registered: May 2003

Strat wrote on Thu, 18 March 2004 00:44

The correct questions are: how to get to that "long run"? How to be not targeted? How to be hard to kill if targeted?

Non-immune is answering none of them. On the contrary ... AR is quite hard to play without immunity despite the testbed results are not too awful.

Non-immune AR colonizes up to twice more planets per territory and invests 50% more resources into terraforming per planet taken. That means 3 times more terraforming effort and 2 times more orbital building effort. Obviously such AR is acoordingly weaker with tech and miners in econ buildup phase and so is easier to kill when targeted.

With centered non-immune hab ... all AR-s neighbours LOVE his best planets. That means improved probability being targeted and there is almost zero chance to trade planets with neighbours.

Finally ... maybe that AR gets significally more resources from more planets and so is just stronger? ... Nope ... Centered hab non-immune AR gets theoretically up to 25% resources more in *very long run* if left alone on fixed territory. Effect is so low thanks to AR econ model weirdness that Iztok explained above. In real testbeds the non-immunes behave weaker than one immunes.

Report message to a moderator

Re: Single Immune & Non-Immune

Thu, 15 April 2004 17:15

Apelord

Master Chief Petty Officer

Messages: 99
Registered: November 2002

vonKreedon wrote on Wed, 17 March 2004 08:25

Quote:

One-immune has usually the non-immune values shifted away from center by some

Well, Grav and Temp are *slightly* more probable to have centered values. However there is not a real bell-curve in place for these values but you do see a slightly higher probability of centered values (center defined as ~the middle 1/3 of possible values) in these two bands. Rad values are pretty well evenly distributed across the range (eg. random). Somewhere on an archive CD I have the statistics to prove it and I do remember there are several studies published on the newsgroup. One thing also to bear in mind is that no planet ever has a value at the extreme of the range. I.e. planet values are always 1 click in from the edge of a band. This yeilds a few rules of thumb:

1) The maximum shift to the left or right for any band is for the midpoint of your hab range to be 16 (31 if TT) clicks from the edge. Shifting further reduces the number of habitable planets.

2) Rad immune is the highest 'payback' for an immunity since the values are random as opposed to more centered for the other two ranges. I.e. a Rad immune, grav/temp narrow but centered hab range will yeild more habitable planets than a grav or temp immune with rad centered will for the same race wiz cost.

3) The probability curve which produces more centered grav and temp values does not produce any huge tendencies, hence you cannot bank on benefitting from this unless you are planning on having lots and lots of planets (75 or more in my experience). Thus once again matching your race design to the universe/game setup will yield the best results as opposed to constantly searching for the single 'wonder race'.

"The object of war is not to die
for your country but to make
the other bastard die for his" -George Patton

Report message to a moderator

Previous Topic:	IT gate detection?
Next Topic:	research etc

Goto Forum:

-=] Back to Top [=-

Current Time: Tue May 07 01:32:16 EDT 2024