Home » Stars! 2.6/7 » The Academy » Hull musings 2
| Hull musings 2 |
Thu, 01 April 2004 11:01  |
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| Quote: |
3) Full attacks are usually not worthwhile until FF hulls are available. DD's just are not cost effective for a decent attack, and by the time you build up a decent attack fleet with them they are outdated. You get more shielding on your FF's and they stack well. As a rule, you can expect FF's en-mass when En6, con6, and w8 tech is available.
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I don't understand the aversion to the DD hull (with 2 weapons and a shield). Every hull has both strengths and weaknesses. A non-IS FF is vulnerable to torps including beta torps (which are also useful against early beamer orbital forts and bases).
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| Re: When to build up defense? |
Thu, 01 April 2004 11:18  |
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I agree - beta torps are very usefull on a DD hull. You want to kill an early orbital fort or Space Dock in the early game - DD's with beta torps and a computer is very efficient and you only need 4 or 5 of them. Much better than getting into range of an orbital with beams. Just use 'Kill Starbase' 'Net Damage' orders and those beams on the orbital station never get to shoot and the orbital is dead. Follow up the destruction of the orbital with a pop drop and you have the planet.
Personally, I'll use a DD for beta torps any day over the FF.
Ptolemy
Though we often ask how and why, we must also do to get the answers to the questions.Report message to a moderator
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| Re: When to build up defense? |
Thu, 01 April 2004 12:24 |
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| alric |
 | Crewman 1st Class |
Messages: 38
Registered: September 2003 | |
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Maybe because you also put torps on an armed base. At least I do. Otherwise you're vulnerable to the alpha torp DDs (yes this strat has been used before, and has worked, or so I've been told - never personally had it used against me or used it). And check the cost effective comment. Beta torp DDs are useful vs scouts and opportunist attacks. If you're seriously going after someone, expect to die quickly and messily if using beta torp DDs.
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| Re: When to build up defense? |
Thu, 01 April 2004 13:31 |
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| alric wrote on Thu, 01 April 2004 10:24 |
If you're seriously going after someone, expect to die quickly and messily if using beta torp DDs.
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It is all a question of what you are battling. Just like in the later game you often mix beamers and torp/missile ships and try to keep the torp ships all undamaged.
Heavy shielded beamer frigates may be effective against beamer destroyers, beamer destroyers against beta torp ships (either destroyer or frigate) and beta torps against the shielded beamer frigates.
A weakness with torps is extra fuel needed because of their weight (which affects longer range attacks).
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| Re: When to build up defense? |
Thu, 01 April 2004 17:47 |
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| alric |
| Crewman 1st Class |
Messages: 38
Registered: September 2003 | |
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If you're using beta torp DDs vs Shielded frigates, you're seriously behind in the tech war. You generally see lots of shielded frigates at weap 8, you should at least be at weap 8 yourself, which means only a couple of years off weap 10. If you're the one pushing, you don't push beta DDs vs shielded frigates. You want deltas at least. Beta torp has power 12 and base accuracy of 45% Even with 2 computers, you get accuracy of 65%
Half damage vs shields so 6 damage per torp hit and DDs only have single weapon slots.
You need 8 hits to take out just 1 shielded FF. That's 12 torps fired. But damage is spread through all of the ships in the FF stack. Say you get the 1st 2 shots off before the FFs shoot back. You need 3 times as many DDs to FFs for a realistic fight. You do the math on minerals and resources needed.
Still think beta torp DDs are a viable tactic?
[Updated on: Thu, 01 April 2004 17:55] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: When to build up defense? |
Thu, 01 April 2004 18:22 |
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| Quote: |
Still think beta torp DDs are a viable tactic?
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Yes. I have done it. Of course you WANT delta torps. If we are talking about WANTS I would much rather have Jihads on Battleships. 
If we are talking stacks... You have a stack of ships shooting as well so you kill ships. Bigger stacks actually favour beta torps over beamers compared to single ships, you can't kill 10% of a single ship.
You usually don't bother with battle computers, germ is worth too much at that stage. Your destroyer of frigate tends to have 2 beta torps on it (on a frigate 2 beta torps gets .25 movement over 3). You do an average of around 10 damage with the 2 torps.
For the first number of turns, your ships are doing damage and your opponents aren't. So his ship counts are going down.
There are tricks such as retreating decoy flak to stretch this out. By the time his stack reaches you (if it is big enough to survive), you may have disengage retreated out of the battle. Lots of fun, best enemy can hope for is really fast engines and/or a warmonger to transfer the ships to.
[Updated on: Thu, 01 April 2004 18:32] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: When to build up defense? |
Thu, 01 April 2004 21:31 |
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I'll grant you guys that I don't build many (if any) beta torp ships and I certainly wouldn't be caught dead sending them against shielded frigates (actually, then I would be dead)..
I was just pointing out that against early simple orbitals they can be usefull. Usually, I'll wait for at least yaks and my first warship, if I need one that early, will be a yak destroyer.
Ptolemy
Though we often ask how and why, we must also do to get the answers to the questions.Report message to a moderator
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| Re: When to build up defense? |
Thu, 01 April 2004 21:53 |
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early on, BEAMS KICK MAJOR BUTT.
I testbedded this on a whim.
20 vs 10? beams lost. They could not get through the shields.
10 Yak DD, ManJet, 1 Wolf Shield, 1 Cap
20 Beta FF, 3 Beta Torp, 2 Wolf Shields
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Bazooka FFs also die against Beta FFs (15 vs 20)
but...
Bazooka DDs kill Beta FFs with ease (15 vs 20)
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Regardless, early on, stick with beams, and ignore whoever said to use Beta stuff. Why the heck do programmers call things an Alpha or Beta test? Lotsa bugs and things that JUST DON'T WORK TOO GOOD.
'nuff said...
Xdude
[back to lurk mode]
Dude!Report message to a moderator
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| Re: When to build up defense? |
Fri, 02 April 2004 01:34 |
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Lol, used them in my last actual game. See you in a real game, show you how it is done. If you are so sure you are right I might as well save the advantage of that.
(If someone with a more open mind wants to personal message me and get the detailed math of how I compare and how to make betas work, I will try to respond. Others can lose a battle early in a game to learn.)
[Updated on: Fri, 02 April 2004 01:59] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: When to build up defense? |
Fri, 02 April 2004 04:16 |
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 iztok |
 | Commander |
Messages: 1206
Registered: April 2003
Location: Slovenia, Europe | |
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Hi!
| multilis wrote on Fri, 02 April 2004 08:34 |
Lol, used them in my last actual game.
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IIRC you last game was a beginner/low intermediate, hardly a reliable reference.
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(If someone with a more open mind wants to personal message me ...
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The last time I've seen such a note it was on RGCS. The author was Greg Vorbara, the host, accused of cheating. 
| Quote: |
...and get the detailed math of how I compare and how to make betas work...
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A FF with 2 betas does 10.8 damage on average. A FF with Yak does 78, for 60% minerals and 120% resources, shots first and moves last. If your math shows a 3 Beta FFs to 1 Yak FF ratio, then the math is correct "per se", but wrong for the game.
BR, Iztok
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| Re: When to build up defense? |
Fri, 02 April 2004 09:17 |
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Greetings Iztok:
I always enjoy reading posts from you. You are a skeptic, but you ask questions, try things out, and never seem insulting... and I think that is healthy.
There are some additional things to take into consideration. Beta torps partially go through shields (which can cut the defenses of a heavily shielded frigate in half or more). Beta torps having an extra 2 range get first strike despite extra weight. Battle orders are important as well as decoys to more complex or unknown fights. Battle speed helps, hence 2 torps rather than 3.
I have arranged a testbed for you. I suggest others if they are sure they are right not bother to open it as it obviously won't contain anything they don't already know.
http://members.shaw.ca/david_edmonton/t1.zip
Added note... my decoys may be less than perfect for the situation.
Notes:
Beta Torp guy with same production had 1/3 more ships (33 verses 22). But he only sends 2/3 of his ships to the big battle to keep things fair (plus compensate for extra germ used).
You need to generate a turn to see a battle, that way it is easy to change options before watching.
[Updated on: Fri, 02 April 2004 09:38] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: When to build up defense? |
Fri, 02 April 2004 10:42 |
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| Orca |
 | Chief Warrant Officer 1 |
Messages: 148
Registered: June 2003
Location: Orbiting tower at the L5 ... | |
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You've come up with scenario under which beta torp frigates can make sense (then again, so can range 0 destroyers or cruisers. Alpha torp DD's can be used effectively. Almost anything can make sense under the right circumstances). I notice however several things:
1) Your ironium and germanium investments are far higher (ironium in particular is almost 3 times higher).
2) Croby hordes would most likely give you issues.
3) A WM with range 0 destroyers would DEFINITELY give you issues.
4) W9 provides the sapper, which would make punching through those shields much faster (this is something that cuts both ways - but since beams need to get through shields first...).
5) If you're up against a CA, look out for organic armored frigates.
And most importantly...
6) Those beta frigates are defensive only. A simple beta base would chew them up unless you're going to build them by the 100, which would be a substantial investment in minerals. If you're going up against beta starbases, you really need to have 200+ frigates to have enough ships to carry through against more than 1 base. 100 frigates is 4900kt of ironium - that'll build a fair few jihad cruisers or battleships, which, while they have a short lifespan at least have a longer one than beta frigates.
Jesus saves.
Allah forgives.
Cthulhu thinks you'd make a nice sandwich.Report message to a moderator
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| Re: When to build up defense? |
Fri, 02 April 2004 11:27 |
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I mentioned some of those limitations in my original post. For Mr. Warmonger, decoys help against range 0 ships. One of the ones I had was that beamer destroyers can also work against these (but are vulnerable to beamer frigates).
I specifically stated 'heavily shielded frigates' which were non IS because that is what this applies to.
They actually work good on attack as well. You vastly outnumber a base, just as in jihad era and the defender does not know what to defend against. If he defends against betas with betas you can use beta destroyers or fast beamers.
You have to count that in this era, resources and germ tend to be the big issues. I will splurge on minerals, building things like gattling destroyers. Later when minerals start becoming depleted and your production will actually affect your minerals in the nub era, it becomes time to count minerals more than resources.
[Updated on: Fri, 02 April 2004 11:30] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: When to build up defense? |
Fri, 02 April 2004 12:14 |
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| LEit |
 | Lt. Commander |
Messages: 879
Registered: April 2003
Location: CT | |
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It appears I have to take back my words, you've done a test and it shows what you were saying. I'll also take back what I said about wanting (or not wanting) you in my next game.
I'd never thought of using retreat firing for such slow ships, but against other slow ships, it is obviously a valid tactic. If your opponent has a speed advantage too then this would not work as well. But that either means WM or more research on prop, so there is a window there.
I was under the impression you were talking about DDs not FFs for holding the torps. I built some torp DDs with a jet and no computer, the results are similar. Although the DD version costs quite a bit more.
Note that if you see some one building torp ships, you don't shield your FFs as heavily, one cow hide is all they need. It also helps to drop to 2 bazookas, to reduce the cost per armor. 1 might work against this design, but that's a very specific counter design and would have firepower to cost issues against other beamers.
The costs for these designs are:
2 torp FF: 49 12 18 44
2 torp DD: 60 13 20 65
3b 2wolv FF: 17 26 10 67
3b 1wolv FF: 14 26 7 61
2b 1wolv FF: 14 18 7 50
2b 1cow FF: 13 18 6 48
1b 1cow FF: 13 10 6 37
Moving pop costs either some iron and some germanium (medium freighters) or a lot of iron iron (privateers). In either case building a pile of torps will hurt your ability to move pop and build factories. Building a pile of FFs costs mostly boranium, which is generally not a problem.
For most races, iron is also in somewhat short supply, because they are building privateers to move pop, and are building as few mines as they can get away with so they can maximize their factory production. I suppose if you have some other way to move pop (mini-cargo ships) then this might be a viable tactic. It will also be easier if you have really good mine settings and/or a lot of points on mineral concentrations. Hmm, have you only tried this with an HE in a game?
I also note that you've listed some of their limitations, and havn't said that this is always the best way to attack.
- LEitReport message to a moderator
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| Re: When to build up defense? |
Fri, 02 April 2004 12:48 |
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Thanks for the additional input, LEit. I was doing lighter shielded and weaponed horde ships in my last game. An advantage with the heavy shields is if the enemy catches you with beamers before you retreat, the shields may buy you the extra turns you need to survive.
There are lots of variations depending on tech levels, etc. Sometimes you mix the beta torps with range one beamers as a buffer to keep the enemy away from the torps (anti-warmonger tactic, including against warmonger range 0).
There is some wackiness and exclusions to note with battle orders, it is good to testbed things if you have a big battle early and don't know them. Every battle order has a use or flaw in certain oddball conditions.
In my last game my JOAT opponent transfered his slow range 1 beamer cruisers to his WM ally to give them some speed to catch my beta torps before they could retreat.
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| Re: When to build up defense? |
Fri, 02 April 2004 13:38 |
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| iztok |
| Commander |
Messages: 1206
Registered: April 2003
Location: Slovenia, Europe | |
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Hi!
| multilis wrote on Fri, 02 April 2004 16:17 |
I always enjoy reading posts from you. You are a skeptic, but you ask questions, try things out, and never seem insulting... and I think that is healthy.
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Well...  Thank you.
Now to dissect your testbed. 
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...Battle speed helps, hence 2 torps rather than 3...
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The design you used for a beamer (FF, 3 bazookas, 2 wolverines, FM) was the exact design I've used in a game for my FF horde, but in that game my race was a _WM_, so it had a combat speed of 1.5. That speed is IMO the lowest acceptable for a beamer. If it is slower, then your testbed shows the most likely result of a battle. I could change that by putting better engine on a FF (let's say AD-8), but then just the engine costs more then the FF hull (that offers only 45 armor), and that really doesn't comply with my parsimonious soul  .
So for any other race but WM and IS my first real warship would be a cruiser (OFC it depends of the game situation, 've used successfully bazooka FFs against crobby colloidal FFs). The CC is 1-2 turns of research higher then a FF, but renders ANY missile below Jihad (and your testbed ) obsolete.
BR, Iztok
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| Re: When to build up defense? |
Fri, 02 April 2004 17:16 |
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"The CC is 1-2 turns of research higher"
Depends when the need occurs and lots of other factors. We are talking early years, suprise attacks, a comparitively rare time for war.
We may be talking 100/250 gates at best.
I fought cruisers with counter design destroyers fairly effectively.
One may also make the arguement that BB is only x years higher research and makes CC obsolete. As far as inititive and usefulness goes, it is a bigger jump to battleship than cruiser is from destroyer, imo.
And I have recently heard someone argue how BB are kind of useless because nubs are just around the corner (only 10 years away in his opinion).
You don't always have a choice to wait. If it is your choice, you may choose early if an opponent is less prepared than you.
As an added note... in my last game, my JOAT opponent probably started playing wargames with his IT neighbour around 2420. I in turn invited the JOAT to war games around 2430. My beta torps were mainly to lure him into getting cruisers sent my way (to defend his remote colony on my border). His cruisers eventually fell to some counter design destroyers.
[Updated on: Fri, 02 April 2004 17:27] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: When to build up defense? |
Sat, 03 April 2004 11:07 |
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| Orca |
| Chief Warrant Officer 1 |
Messages: 148
Registered: June 2003
Location: Orbiting tower at the L5 ... | |
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| multilis wrote on Fri, 02 April 2004 11:27 |
They actually work good on attack as well. You vastly outnumber a base, just as in jihad era and the defender does not know what to defend against. If he defends against betas with betas you can use beta destroyers or fast beamers.
You have to count that in this era, resources and germ tend to be the big issues. I will splurge on minerals, building things like gattling destroyers. Later when minerals start becoming depleted and your production will actually affect your minerals in the nub era, it becomes time to count minerals more than resources.
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Couple things. Beta/bazooka era doesn't last long enough for design/counterdesign/counter-counter-design (at best you get to design/counterdesign - then someone's upped the stakes to colloidals/cruisers/etc.).
Minerals are *always* an issue (until the lategame when *all* minerals are an issue.)
10K ironium burned in beta torps is five arm BBs you could have built, or a very large pile of heavy blaster BBs, or... I'll grant you, if you NEED those things built NOW because otherwise you're dead, go ahead. But you'll want to keep your mineral usage under consideration at all stages of the game. Which makes large numbers of these things built to overcome starbases a bit of a stretch.
Jesus saves.
Allah forgives.
Cthulhu thinks you'd make a nice sandwich.Report message to a moderator
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| Re: When to build up defense? |
Sat, 03 April 2004 11:28 |
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| Quote: |
Couple things. Beta/bazooka era doesn't last long enough for design/counterdesign/counter-counter-design (at best you get to design/counterdesign - then someone's upped the stakes to colloidals/cruisers/etc.).
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You may be fighting over remote colonies, may be no gates, transport is slow. It can take many years for an attacking fleet to be assembled and reach a destination (not too many ship producing worlds). Cruisers don't gate as well through 100/250.
Exactly on the counter design game... it is all about upping the stakes, etc. He sent in range 2 beamer cruisers, I countered with range 3 destroyers. He sent in several different range 3 cruiser designs, I countered with gattling destroyers.
IMO it is a question of what is running short, what hurts your eccon that matters. If I spend less resources on ships that means more resources go into mines, and mines produce germ for factories as well as replenish iron. If I have iron to spare I can splurge on iron in the early years.
[Updated on: Sat, 03 April 2004 11:33] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: When to build up defense? |
Sun, 04 April 2004 12:56 |
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I played, I checked. Cruisers get damaged. We are talking possibly multiple gatings, attacks get shifted over the front, our early empires were spread more than 250 ly. Cruisers have higher init and more bonus slots, destroyers have last move advantage (which allows different range beamers to work better). Every hull has a strength.
Suppose I have my destroyers splitting 2 of your worlds you defend with cruisers, and you have 100/250 gates. My destroyers are within 81 ly of each world, your worlds are more than 100 ly apart. Your crusiers are less flexible to jump back and forth while I either attack my choice or sit gathering more forces.
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