Home » Stars! 2.6/7 » The Bar » What to do with cheaters (sigh)
| What to do with cheaters (sigh) |
Mon, 15 March 2004 21:08  |
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Well, I guess this subject should be brought up for a decent discussion.
In games I've played over the last 9+ years I've run across a few games with blatant cheaters. One of the worst cases was when we caught an SD player from Russia using the free pop hack on newly colonized planets as well as invaded planets. A new case is one of outright lying as a host setting up a game.
Personally, I'd like to be able to ban anybody caught cheating for life. However, this is unrealistic (not to mention impossible).
Sadly, in almost all cheat cases the game seems to be a loss (as well as the time everybody put into it). If anybody has any thoughts on how to save a game where cheating has occurred - I'm interested in hearing it.
So far, the only true punishment for a cheater I've been able to determine as viable is publicizing the case and causing humiliation. When a cheater starts to try to defend his/her actions you know you're getting somewhere. Stars! community ostracization also is partially effective.
Ptolemy
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| Re: What to do with cheaters (sigh) |
Tue, 16 March 2004 05:31  |
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The problem of salvaging games when cheating is identified is basically the same as players dropping without trace, assuming that cheaters are expelled from the game.
If someone is willing to step in to replace the cheating player, the host could set a penalty that they should pay the injured (cheated against) players - handing over planets, fleets etc.
The game would be altered, certainly, but it could still survive.
If setting up a big game where people are going to invest a lot of time (16 players, over a year long, for example) the host could ask for a "bond" to be paid (in real-world money). You get the bond back at the end of the game if you are still playing, or when you are "killed", but not at all if you are kicked out for cheating.
As a player, would you pay a $50 returnable deposit to join a game if it meant that there was less chance of the game being destroyed by cheating ?
The bond would help to prevent drop-outs, and would mean that players who are losing a war would not just stop playing.
If the total bond-pot is paid out to all remaining players at the end of the game then cheaters would actually financially benefit the other players.
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| Re: What to do with cheaters (sigh) |
Tue, 16 March 2004 06:03 |
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| Micha | 
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Messages: 2342
Registered: November 2002
Location: Belgium GMT +1 | |
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| Staz wrote on Tue, 16 March 2004 11:31 |
The problem of salvaging games when cheating is identified is basically the same as players dropping without trace, assuming that cheaters are expelled from the game.
If someone is willing to step in to replace the cheating player, the host could set a penalty that they should pay the injured (cheated against) players - handing over planets, fleets etc.
The game would be altered, certainly, but it could still survive.
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The game itself might be fixed with a replacement, but the feelings of the players towards the game might be something like a foul taste in their mouth. They might feel abused and toyed with. 
Another (rather funny) thing is that the cheaters not necessarily were winning. IIRC the cheater (or cheaters) in the Summer game was even losing the game! How could you let the replacement repay the other players if the cheaters race is doing worse than the rest?
Also the cheaters race itself might not be viable without cheating ...
| Quote: |
If setting up a big game where people are going to invest a lot of time (16 players, over a year long, for example) the host could ask for a "bond" to be paid (in real-world money). You get the bond back at the end of the game if you are still playing, or when you are "killed", but not at all if you are kicked out for cheating.
As a player, would you pay a $50 returnable deposit to join a game if it meant that there was less chance of the game being destroyed by cheating ?
The bond would help to prevent drop-outs, and would mean that players who are losing a war would not just stop playing.
If the total bond-pot is paid out to all remaining players at the end of the game then cheaters would actually financially benefit the other players.
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This could work if the money was given to a neutral party (AutoHost?) and not to the host itself since he's the one most likely cheating ...
But what is this coming to if depositing money is what is really necessary to have a fun game? 
mch
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| Re: What to do with cheaters (sigh) |
Tue, 16 March 2004 10:50 |
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If there was a trusted 3rd party to hold the cash then even the host could put up an "integrity bond".
So a new game would be announced, with a first time host. The annoucement would say something like "10 players, medium, packed...blah..blah...run on Autohost...blah..$100 bond posted".
Of course, there's nothing that _requires_ bonds to be paid, either by hosts or players. It is just a way of someone saying "I am not a cheater and I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is".
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| Re: What to do with cheaters (sigh) |
Tue, 16 March 2004 11:02 |
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I seriously doubt that cash bonds of insurance are a viable solution. First of all, everyone woul have to use a PayPal account. How else would somebody in Hong Kong or Timbuktu for that matter put up the bond.
Additionally, due to the very wide diversity of incomes and standards of living across our world $50 may not seem much to many but, is a weeks pay for some. Russia is a case in point as are several of the Baltic and Adriatic nations - these places have internet, and connections are a lot cheaper than in the 'developed' world. i.e. connections cost what the market can afford. Lastly, I have played in games with players from Serbia, Bosnia and Russia that did have valid, purchased games and were good and decent players. I would not want to see those players excluded for financial reasons.
My personal method is that I check e-mail addresses as much as possible before a game starts. I do not accept players in my games using hotmail addresses or players using similar web based mail addresses unless I already know that player from previous games. It's too easy for web based mail systems to be abused.
I think that the best options here are to use common sense, check for web based mail addresses, and, if you have never heard of a player find out what games he played in before (if any) and get another player to send a mail to vouch for him.
We are always going to run a risk, as players and hosts, in having some of the worst that humanity has to offer mucking up a game. But, we can minimize that risk without too much effort.
My 2 cents for this thread I started.
Ptolemy
[Updated on: Tue, 16 March 2004 11:03]
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| Re: What to do with cheaters (sigh) |
Tue, 16 March 2004 11:24 |
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I am the cheating host from this thread. 
Autohost is a great resource, keep using this - I GOT CAUGHT 
AH keeps logs of IP addresses, email addresses and serial codes. Which is plenty enough to spot cheaters when they appear, as demonstrated here. 
In the CLFKIAB game I didn't actually play for an advantage (I actually got my arse kicked fair and square, and was continuously surprised throughout the game, which is not the behavior you would normally expect from a cheating player.)
Explanation:
I made a stupid decision to run an observer for end of game reports, and couldn't resist playing in the game too. I don't expect anybody to actually believe that comment, but it's true. I'm fully expecting and accepting that I will be banned for this.
I'm hoping the players play on without me, which would be reasonable as the race is in fact, nearly dead.
Particularly humiliating, is that I spoiled 2 games, not 1. When another game I was playing in - ARGAME - looked like it was not going to come off hold after a player drop, I took over the dropped race, and played it against myself to try to keep the game alive. This was obviously extremely stupid.
I'd like to apologise to everybody concerned in both games, and to everybody on autohost.
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| Re: What to do with cheaters (sigh) |
Tue, 16 March 2004 12:07 |
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 Ron |
| Commander
Forum Administrator
Stars! AutoHost Administrator |
Messages: 1231
Registered: October 2002
Location: Collegedale, TN | |
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| Dogthinkers wrote on Tue, 16 March 2004 11:24 |
AH keeps logs of IP addresses, email addresses and serial codes. I'd like to apologise to everybody concerned in both games, and to everybody on autohost.
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That's 'serial hashes' not 'codes'. I can't see the actual serial numbers used.
Since Dogthinkers has posted this public apology, I won't need to post a big message about it, but will add this bit:
Dogthinkers has shown maturity and responsibility in all his replies to me during the investigation. He has maturally accepted responsibility for his actions.
Initially, I had thought that he was actually another very high ranking user here, but he was quite agonized to hear that I believed him to be the other user and didn't want his (Dogthinkers) mistakes to affect the reputation of the other user.
As for punishment:
Dogthinkers serial number is banned from all AutoHost games for a period of 2 months, and he is banned from hosting any game on AutoHost for the same period of time. (If he had not been mature and reponsible in his replies to me, it would have been a LOT longer.)
Dogthinkers rank is reduced to Civilian, and he must 'work off' a -200 rank point penalty.
Ron Miller
Stars! AutoHostReport message to a moderator
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| Re: What to do with cheaters (sigh) |
Tue, 16 March 2004 13:07 |
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Due to the amount of time I and the other players invested in cflkiab and that this situation seems to have done terminal damage to the game I'm not sure I'm happy enough with the length of the ban. However, I am a mere crewman and Ron is the Admiral. I humbly bow to his greater authority.
I do give Dogthinker some credit for having posted the apology though had he not been caught I'm not so sure about how repentent he would be.
I guess my own stupidity is that I should be more selective in what games I choose to play.
Ptolemy
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| Re: What to do with cheaters (sigh) |
Thu, 18 March 2004 07:15 |
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I am pleased with the level of response this topic has generated. And, obviously, Ron has the final say in punishments / bans imposed on cheaters using Autohost.
Though I am also not without having committed some sins in life, I have never cheated in any games I've played. I've never even been tempted to do so. If I can't win by the rules then somebody has outplayed me and receives my congratulations.
Personally, I have no respect for somebody that cheats. And, if they would cheat once I suspect that they are likely to cheat again. Even if it is something so small as to send a ship for one turn direct north/south through a minefield - I think they would try it since the liklihood of getting caught would be very small.
People do indeed deserve second chances - but, I am not one to hand out that 2nd chance without seeing some obvious repentance along with evidence of a change in behaviour and attitude. In this case, I have seen apologies and repentence - evidence of honor and fair play has yet to be determined.
We all put a lot of time and effort into playng a decent fair game. To see 6 months worth of work go down the drain with no proper resolution to the game because a host cheats is more than sad.
As for this case, I will reserve judgment for a long time - at least a year, before I will be able to discern if he has indeed mended his ways.
Regards to all,
Ptolemy
Though we often ask how and why, we must also do to get the answers to the questions.Report message to a moderator
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| Re: What to do with cheaters (sigh) |
Thu, 18 March 2004 07:25 |
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| Ptolemy wrote on Thu, 18 March 2004 07:15 |
I am pleased with the level of response this topic has generated. And, obviously, Ron has the final say in punishments / bans imposed on cheaters using Autohost.
Though I am also not without having committed some sins in life, I have never cheated in any games I've played. I've never even been tempted to do so. If I can't win by the rules then somebody has outplayed me and receives my congratulations.
Personally, I have no respect for somebody that cheats. And, if they would cheat once I suspect that they are likely to cheat again. Even if it is something so small as to send a ship for one turn direct north/south through a minefield - I think they would try it since the liklihood of getting caught would be very small.
People do indeed deserve second chances - but, I am not one to hand out that 2nd chance without seeing some obvious repentance along with evidence of a change in behaviour and attitude. In this case, I have seen apologies and repentence - evidence of honor and fair play has yet to be determined.
We all put a lot of time and effort into playng a decent fair game. To see 6 months worth of work go down the drain with no proper resolution to the game because a host cheats is more than sad.
As for this case, I will reserve judgment for a long time - at least a year, before I will be able to discern if he has indeed mended his ways.
Regards to all,
Ptolemy
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Beating a dead horse perhaps. But the fact that Ron limited his punishment to a two month ban does not limit you or others to specifically not play in a game with Dogthinker (or any other player that you believe has cheated) for whatever period you think is appropriate.
You can essentially allow others to take the risk in ascertaining the repentence part.
- Kurt
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| Re: What to do with cheaters (sigh) |
Thu, 18 March 2004 08:16 |
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| Quote: |
But the fact that Ron limited his punishment to a two month ban does not limit you or others to specifically not play in a game with Dogthinker (or any other player that you believe has cheated) for whatever period you think is appropriate.
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This is true for anybody
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You can essentially allow others to take the risk in ascertaining the repentence part.
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I already give credit for repentence - not yet for evidence of behaviour change.
Ptolemy
Though we often ask how and why, we must also do to get the answers to the questions.Report message to a moderator
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Insurance against cheaters and dropouts!
and naturally, this kind of post does NOT get any rank points and thus doesn't count towards your rank. 
cheeting herets evrone and it mares amny peple frome wonting to play the game. having a list of reputabl hosts is good but how do you determin how gets on that list without letting them host! same with the list of reputable players you would have to play games that dident damand that you where on the list beffor you could get on the list it would creat two clases of players on autohost the shund and the not shuned 
, thank you very much! 
