Home » Stars! 2.6/7 » The Bar » Stars! All Round Competition
| Stars! All Round Competition |
Sat, 21 February 2004 20:26  |
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There was a series of games I did a few years ago,
- Core!, which was a huge universe, compressed into the size of a medium universe, with max-mins settings. This was supposed to simulate the galactic core. And ended up being a free-for all, massive MM, fun game which repeated a couple more times.
- Spars!, which was the converse of Core!, being a medium universe, expanded to the size of a huge universe, no max-mins. This game was supposed to simulate the galactic interspaces and it was a very hard game to play effectively in.
- God Loves Dice! A medium universe where all players received random races and played. This game suffered from a lot of drop outs, because understandably some of the races created were downright silly.
However, my thoughts are with a little bit of modifications, a series of competition games could be set up...
Core! is a test of the players skill in setting up and managing a monster, and also a big test of the political savvy of the player.
Spars! is once again, at test of the players skill in setting up a race, which will function well in the face of very depleted resources.
GLD is a test of a player's skill in playing a race which has not been created by them, has obvious defects, but the player can demonstrate his skill in turning lead into gold... taking a race with problems and discovering the hidden advantages. My thoughts are that instead of one race being given to the player, four randomly generated ones would be given, and then the player has to choose the most interesting one to her/him.
Each game would run for a set amount of time, say 100 years.
At the end of that time, the players would be rated according to a scale which I could come up with [planets, fleets, area, etc.]
and receive a placement.
At the end of the series, each players placements from the three games would be totalled to come up with the ALL ROUND PLAYER winner.
Thoughts?
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| Re: Stars! All Round Competition |
Sun, 22 February 2004 07:09  |
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| Kotk | 
 | Commander |
Messages: 1227
Registered: May 2003 | |
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The Core and Spars are good ideas but like you said CLD series had problems. I think your direction to improve the idea of CLD by giving 4 races to choose is right. What i doubt if it is enough.
I once generated 100 random races and analysed them. It seemed to me that majority of these races are truely awful ... about 2 from 3 are mineless, have below 6% growth or are factoryless with 1/2000 pop efficency. As contrast I found two OK looking 3-immune 5% HE-s from 100 races. Other 5 races i found semi-playable were maybe only slightly better than Vanilla Rabbitoids, Silicanoids and Humanoids.
So what i think...
Maybe ... ban them 4%-5% HE-s ... or handpick them out if they happen. These seemed too good in comparision with the rest.
Maybe generate (different) tiny sparse with 16 random races for each player and allow them to pick one race from there?
Maybe allow to play vanilla races if nothing suits them from the given set?
Turning lead into gold will remain but less chance that game will be too unbalanced.
[Updated on: Sun, 22 February 2004 08:08] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Stars! All Round Competition |
Sun, 22 February 2004 11:09 |
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| Kotk wrote on Sun, 22 February 2004 06:09 |
So what i think...
Maybe ... ban them 4%-5% HE-s ... or handpick them out if they happen. These seemed too good in comparision with the rest.
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Maybe a ban on ALL HE random races, in the other tournament segments the players could choose HE if they want.
| Kotk wrote: |
Maybe generate (different) tiny sparse with 16 random races for each player and allow them to pick one race from there?
Maybe allow to play vanilla races if nothing suits them from the given set?
Turning lead into gold will remain but less chance that game will be too unbalanced.
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Yes, I agree, 16 random races + 1 default race might be appropriate, perhaps a penalty of +1 placement, for choosing a vanilla race, that would give placement from 2-11. And, overall, it would not hurt (so) much, when you consider this is a three game test.
Now, on to logistics... all players would have to commit themselves to the three games, the host would NOT play (namely yours truly) because I don't consider myself of appropriate caliber to play in this series.
The games would be anonymous, no email addresses published, and the players would have to use non-standard names for the races. (no players would play with races which have names like they have ever had before)
The series would start with Spars! (less chance of getting involved with any but a few players,) continue with GLD (similar reasoning) and then finally end with the Core! scenario. Placements would be withheld until all scenarios have been played. (No ganging up on one player because he had good placements in the previous two games)
Once again, thoughts?
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| Re: Stars! All Round Competition |
Sun, 22 February 2004 19:54 |
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 EDog |
 | Lt. Junior Grade |
Messages: 417
Registered: November 2002
Location: Denver, Colorado, USA | |
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*sigh*
Dammit, Donjon, how am I going to get any work done with all your (&&#%ing cool ideas? I played in Spars! all those years ago and actually found it very enjoyable. IIRC, I was doing pretty well when the game ended (for whatever reason I don't recall).
Well, since I'm out of the dueling championship, I suppose I could find time for _one_ more game.
Count me in on this.
EDog
http://ianthealy.com
Born, grew up, became an adventurer
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| Re: Stars! All Round Competition |
Mon, 23 February 2004 06:36 |
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| EDog wrote on Sun, 22 February 2004 18:54 |
*sigh*
Dammit, Donjon, how am I going to get any work done with all your (&&#%ing cool ideas? I played in Spars! all those years ago and actually found it very enjoyable. IIRC, I was doing pretty well when the game ended (for whatever reason I don't recall).
Well, since I'm out of the dueling championship, I suppose I could find time for _one_ more game.
Count me in on this.
EDog
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Chuckle, I do believe it was because you won wasn't it? 
{editors note: No it was the Stone Dogs, played by Adam Piekarski that won.}
Timing: In order to play these games in a reasonable amount of time... if we say 24 hour separation of gens for the first 20 turns, and 48 hour separation for the next 80 turns, we are looking at 180 days for 1 game, roughly 1.5 years for the tournament... which is too much... a little compression could take place during the last 10 moves of the previous game. (the next game could be commenced)
Day 1: Game 1 Starts.
Day 160: Game 2 Starts.
Day 180: Game 1 Ends.
Day 320: Game 3 Starts.
Day 340: Game 2 Ends.
Day 480: Game 3 Ends. {still 1.3 years)
However, if we have 24 hours separation for the first 30 turns, and merge the first and next games like above:
Day 1: Game 1 Starts.
Day 140: Game 2 Starts.
Day 170: Game 1 Ends.
Day 180: Game 3 Starts.
Day 210: Game 2 Ends.
Day 350: Game 3 Ends.
Chuckle... and the the winner is crowned for the year. (and a next series of tournaments could commence)
Errr... so it looks like the committment would be to mostly one game at a time, but the last 15 moves of the previous game occur simultaneously with the first 30 moves of the next game.
However, another option might be to shorten the game length... if we said 90 turns instead of 100 turns... with 30 years at 24hr gens.
Day 1: Game 1 Starts.
Day 120: Game 2 Starts.
Day 150: Game 1 Ends.
Day 210: Game 3 Starts.
Day 240: Game 2 Ends.
Day 330: Game 3 Ends.
That would leave reasonable leeway for holidays and such 
BTW: scheduling is my forte, (according to my boss)
[Updated on: Mon, 23 February 2004 07:01] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Stars! All Round Competition |
Mon, 23 February 2004 09:15 |
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| mazda wrote on Mon, 23 February 2004 07:08 |
| donjon wrote on Mon, 23 February 2004 11:36 |
BTW: scheduling is my forte, (according to my boss)
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I can see why your boss would like your scheduling.
However, the poor joe who has to do the work would be far less pleased.
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Funny thing, they are always complaining
chuckle:
| Mazda Wrote: |
However, if we have 24 hours separation for the first 30 turns, and merge the first and next games like above:
Day 1: Game 1 Starts.
Day 140: Game 2 Starts.
Day 170: Game 1 Ends.
Day 180: Game 3 Starts.
Day 210: Game 2 Ends.
Day 350: Game 3 Ends.
Erm, no. Should be.
Day 1: Game 1 Starts.
Day 140: Game 2 Starts.
Day 170: Game 1 Ends.
Day 280: Game 3 Starts.
Day 310: Game 2 Ends.
Day 450: Game 3 Ends
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Hmmm,
Break it down:
Solution 1 (100 year games)
Day 1: Game 1 Starts at 24 hr. gens.
Day 31: Game 1 Continues with 48 hr. gens.
Day 140: Game 2 Starts at 24 hr. gens.
Day 170: Game 1 Ends.
Day 171: Game 2 Continues with 48 hr. gens.
Day 280: Game 3 Starts at 24 hr. gens.
Day 310: Game 2 Ends. (70 turns 140 days)
Day 311: Game 3 Continues with 48 hr. gens.
Day 450: Game 3 Ends. (70 turns 140 days)
-Yep, I should have mapped it
Solution 2 (90 year games)
Day 1: Game 1 Starts at 24 hr. gens.
Day 31: Game 1 Continues with 48 hr. gens.
Day 120: Game 2 Starts at 24 hr. gens.
Day 150: Game 1 Ends.
Day 151: Game 2 Continues with 48 hr. gens.
Day 240: Game 3 Starts at 24 hr. gens.
Day 270: Game 2 Ends. (60 turns 120 days)
Day 271: Game 3 Continues with 48 hr. gens.
Day 390: Game 3 Ends. (60 turns 120 days)
Hmmm, thanks Mazda ...
Well, Solution 3 (80 year games)
Day 1: Game 1 Starts at 24 hr. gens.
Day 31: Game 1 Continues with 48 hr. gens.
Day 100: Game 2 Starts at 24 hr. gens.
Day 130: Game 1 Ends.
Day 131: Game 2 Continues with 48 hr. gens.
Day 200: Game 3 Starts at 24 hr. gens.
Day 230: Game 2 Ends. (50 turns 100 days)
Day 231: Game 3 Continues with 48 hr. gens.
Day 330: Game 3 Ends. (50 turns 100 days)
Game 3 could be extended for maybe 10 years to allow for more developments.
How is that?
[Updated on: Mon, 23 February 2004 10:56] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Stars! All Round Competition |
Mon, 23 February 2004 10:55 |
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| ForceUser wrote on Mon, 23 February 2004 09:46 |
This game sound very interesting but I take it the caliber would be Advanced Intermediate to Advanced right?
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Yes, Intermediate to Advanced Players... up to 16 players.
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| Re: Stars! All Round Competition |
Mon, 23 February 2004 15:44 |
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The mapping tool I use is an old dos utility called stretch.exe.
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| Re: Stars! All Round Competition |
Tue, 24 February 2004 10:39 |
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| LEit wrote on Tue, 24 February 2004 09:00 |
A dock can build a beamer nubian. However, ruling them as less then a full base is reasonable for scoring, perhaps 2 points for a dock? Your changes will be very difficult on the person doing the scoring however.
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Maybe 1 point for Space Dock. The change shoudn't be to difficult, I would pick up the planetary dump for each player. Then pull it into a worksheet
| LEit wrote: |
A score oddity: you get points per 100k pop on a world (up to 600k), regardless of if the world is red or low green or not. So dropping 600k pop on every red world gives a bit of a boost to points.
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True enough, maybe a limit to "habitable" planets, although I'm not certain how to do this in a worksheet.
| LEit wrote: |
The big thing that score tracks is resources. After about 2500, resources become much less important then fleet in being and minerals to build more fleet, I'm not sure how you'd want to track that in the score.
I got a huge boost to my score in RWIAB by going to 3x pop everwhere, this got more points from the point per 100k as well as the resource count. I also had docks everywhere. This was not needed to win, but I went from a bit over 2nd place to about 2x 2nd place...
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However, since each of these games is going to run only until 2480, or 2490 worrying about the reality of score in the late game is not really relevant.
Thanks Leit.
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| Re: Stars! All Round Competition |
Wed, 25 February 2004 10:29 |
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| mazda wrote on Wed, 25 February 2004 09:22 |
I should have posted this sooner.
Surely a cut-off at 3500 means that some fairly standard early BB's will not count as Capital ships ?
I guess you should have a different cut-off for the Spars game than the Core game.
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No, even in Spars! I think the rating is acceptable... yes early BB's with small capital class missiles will NOT be counted as capital class ships.
[Updated on: Wed, 25 February 2004 10:29] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Stars! All Round Competition |
Wed, 25 February 2004 11:04 |
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| mazda |
 | Lieutenant |
Messages: 655
Registered: April 2003
Location: Reading, UK | |
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Or some Beamers.
Presumably you have some particular ship in mind when you mention 3500 ?
(either to include or exclude)
[Updated on: Wed, 25 February 2004 11:06] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Stars! All Round Competition |
Wed, 25 February 2004 12:27 |
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| mazda wrote on Wed, 25 February 2004 10:04 |
Or some Beamers.
Presumably you have some particular ship in mind when you mention 3500 ?
(either to include or exclude)
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Yes, basically exclusion of destroyers, and frigates. But also the cheaper ones... I am trying to stop production of non-viable capital class ships for the sole purpose of accumulating points.
I played in a game where capital class ships were a vc and was very frustated when I discovered the "winner" had done just that... (frigates with 2 arms) and left them in hardly accessible locations.
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. Now only to get some poor sob to host it 
hehe
. It can't be that difficult to host a few games right? 
I mean, me being a fast learner and all 
and I'm all set... hehe
. Beginners are just not reliable (me being one 
I'll put in a post on the Bar for DEDICATED beginners 
