Well, last night I had some friends over to the office to play poker, two of them got called away due to a family emergency and the other there of us were just sitting around. One of the other guys plays Stars! with me and I suggested that we have a quick game of stars!

The other games of stars! that I am playing have not gotten anywhere near actual battle yet, and having to work out tactics against actual people for the first time was a real eyeopener. I was rattled and I made sooo many mistakes, the pressure of people waiting for me to get my turn in didn't help either.

Anyway, what I'd really like to know is what do you folks think the major differences between playing against people and playing against the AI are?

More specifically: How do people act compared to the AI? and How should your strategy/tactics change when playing against people instead of the AI?

Thanks
schpat

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Assume human opponents are twice as devious as you are. Paranoia is a survival skill.
They'll hop fleets from one planet to another when moving so your standard scanners can't see them, they'll use chaff to nullify your missiles. They'll race you to tech breakpoints and shift all their production to warships before going on a blitzkrieg, then they'll kill your starbase with a lurking fleet you didn't see, then hit your planet with LBU's to kill defenses, and/or smack you with an immense boranium packet or four at high warp , and/or waypoint-1 popdrop you.
The secret is to do the same to them, but harder and faster.
Go read the thread called "the 10 commandments of playing Stars!" or somesuch for ideas.
Happy hunting.

[Updated on: Thu, 05 February 2004 03:43]

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schpat wrote on Thu, 05 February 2004 00:19

How do people act compared to the AI? and How should your strategy/tactics change when playing against people instead of the AI?

God, it'd take me a week to type up a good answer for that one. I'm not sure anyone can definitively answer that one in one post. I'd suggest looking for a newbie game in the New Game Announcements Forum and find out for yourself. That's probably how most people learn - the ole school of hard knocks.

The AI is good for getting you familiar with the basic functions of the game, but unfortunately nothing about strategy or tactics. The AI just does it's own thing without any regard for what you are doing. It doesn't think, anticipate or react. People do.

The only thing I can say is when attacking, imagine that you are the other player seeing the fleet heading for you. If you're heading straight (and predictably) to a target, he's going to do his best to thwart it, so you have to be deceptive unless you just have overwhelming superiority. Even with that, you're liable to pay a price you could have avoided by using diversionary tactics, like initially heading toward one target and at the last minute landing on a different target altogether. Feint like a boxer, do those famous knight moves in chess (like making your opponent choose between his rook and his queen). And if he can't see you coming at all, that's better still. Try to keep your opponent reacting to you, rather than reacting to him. And in most cases (IMO) the words of General Patton are true - "the best defense is a good offense."

Then there's good old fashion politics between players. "Hey, lookit Johnny boy there - he's gonna take over the whole dang world if we don't stop him!" Anybody whose played Risk with 3 or more players knows what I'm talking about.

[Updated on: Thu, 05 February 2004 03:59]

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schpat wrote on Thu, 05 February 2004 04:42

Now I am starting to get paranoid. It just seems that everybody is probably out to get me...

Oh, don't worry... they really *are* you know.

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No AI will ever be a sneaky or devious as a human player.

Against humans....scout and scout and scout and scout and scout and scout and scout and...you get the point. Also be 100% guarranteed that no matter what kind of scouting you've got and what kind of scanner coverage you've got, you are missing something Humans players will land a blindside punch in countless ways while the AI is always nice enough to joyfully display their full intentions turns in advance.

Of course that's part of the whole fun...executing an attack (seemingly out of nowhere) without giving your opponent a chance to defend is worth the price of admission. Being on the other end of a 'suprise' offensive is worth much less.
v-Skippy

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Thanks for all the great advice, It seems like I need it.

At the moment I'm in year 2422 of my moajor pbem game and the diplomacy is really hotting up, am I right in thinking that at this point people are just stalling and hoping for enough time to really get big enough to stomp on someone?

How often does a second place player stomp a first place one? This is obviously more difficult than first stomping second!

Anyway, thanks so much, got lots to do now, too much MM

Schpat

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schpat wrote on Fri, 13 February 2004 17:30

How often does a second place player stomp a first place one? This is obviously more difficult than first stomping second!

Last game i won i was at second place in score but otherwise scary. All, including the first place player agreed that any further resistance is useless.

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Depends. I've seen wars start as early as 2407 or so (right as people start moving pop). It depends on relative races, advantages, aggressiveness of the players, universe size, blah blah... Early wars are expensive in terms of opportunity cost, but it can pay off if you're able to carve off more than your fair share of the planets and stomp a slow grower before he can ramp up. This effect is best seen when scourging a 4% HE's planets early on. Which is why 4% HE's aren't viable, actually - their vulnerable period lasts until well after 2450 unless it's an AFON style start.

And it's *far* from uncommon for a second or third place race to beat up on the first. Keep in mind that if you ally, your combined resources can be rather greater than just 1st place on his own (which is why it's important to ally). Even when you don't have superior resources, you can still take advantage of ship design and tactical deficiencies in your opponents to achieve local superiority. And if you do that enough, it's not quite so local anymore.

Something else is that often people ally early on and keep one ally for most of the game - so it isn't uncommon to see 1 & 2 allied by lategame if they've beaten their way there.

[Updated on: Fri, 13 February 2004 11:55]

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Quote:

am I right in thinking that at this point people are just stalling and hoping for enough time to really get big enough to stomp on someone?

Yep - its often better to wait to build bigger better ships.
If you make a fleet then in 4 years get the next level of tech (ie frigate to cruisers) you find that your fleet is outclassed by any new fleets. So everyone is thinking will that fleet do enough in 4 years to justify building it.
Factorys just increase this "if I wait 5 years Ill have 15k resources to build ships rather than the 9K I have now"

However you cant afford to be 3 years of research away from building decent ships when you get 2 worlds hit by your neigbour who researched and built ships.
You have 15K he has 10K but he is knocking out 1 world a turn of yours. In 3 years you have the ships to stand up to his in 5 years you have a fleet assembled - but your 5 worlds down and now have 12K to his 15K.

My advice Stall everyone! build a few minelayers to keep people off your back. Then when you can - stomp them before they stomp you!

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All this emphasis on diplomacy is somewhat sickening, actually.

Personally, I hate diplomacy. And the way I see it, if the other guy is willing to agree to something, it's because (1) he's afraid of you or (2) he thinks he's getting the better end of the deal or (3) both. I tend to think I'm better off not tying one hand behind my back by terms of an agreement. I like to just tell everyone to bugger off and I'll do what I want to 'cuz I ain't giving them squat.

It never fails - almost immediately someone is contacting me wanting me to agree not to go past some line. Say I agree. Next turn someone else is wanting to cut me off from another direction the same way. Next turn it's someone else. I keep agreeing to all this garbage and soon I've got nowhere to go but everyone else is happy because I'm being a cowardly retard and giving them whatever they think they need to get a leg up.

At least make no deals involving unknown factors. And as early in the game as people begin wanting to place borders etc, many people have to be working with unknown factors, agreeing to boundaries without even knowing just how big a chunk their neighbor is getting them to agree to let them have or what the nature of their neighbors race is. IMO, one should not be afraid to be uncooperative. If he's tougher than you, he's just tougher than you, and believe me, agreeing to a border is not going to help you. OTOH, NOT agreeing to a border may allow you the freedom to rise to the top. Staying out of his hair is good for him, but you gain nothing from it.

Last thing... if you DO make a border agreement, your neighbor is going to test your resolve to the agreed upon border, this you can count on. Watch as he soon puts one toe over the line to see if you let it go, or stomp it. Make sure you stomp it as ferociously as you possibly can. He of course will cry foul , that this is all just a big misunderstanding and that while you agreed to the border one way, he actually meant it was another way and that the planet he just tried to steal from you means nothing to him anyways, he just thought it was his under the agreement, you don't need to get your panties all in a bunch, sheesh, why are you such an uptight jerk? This of course is much preferable to the otherwise inevitable and increasingly hostile RENEGOTIATION that will ensue if you merely protest. If you DON'T stomp his toe ferociously enough (with action, not words) whenever he inches it over your border, he will become increasingly emboldened to see how much he can get away with, and as the stakes rise hostilities become inevitable, and the longer you put it off by allowing him to eat away at you the worse it is for you. At the point where your neighbor first steps over the line, know that you've made an agreement with the devil and begin thinking about the fastest way to hurt him really bad (never mind the agreement because it means nothing to HIM), and don't forget to actually do it. Don't warn him, just stomp all over him as hard as you can and THEN when you tell him your problem you'll have a more receptive audience.

That in itself proves the worth of diplomacy. Words mean nothing. Now, if it's going to be a permanent alliance between only you and him, then it's worth something. If it's anything less, it's only going to hurt you.

You want diplomacy? Here's my idea of good diplomacy: when I have a burglar in my house caught redhanded, and I've got the drop on him with my 45-caliber automatic loaded with 155 grain hollowpoints and I'm telling him I'd rather shoot him than not, so don't tempt me. There's some good diplomacy - apply it to Stars if you can.

This of course, is only my rather jaded (but not necessarily untrue) opinion, and I'm sure some will say I'm oh-so-wrong. All I can say is remember what I said, and if you find it to be true come back here and back me up, because I need a feather in my cap - I've never been right before. At least, not that I can remember.

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Hi!

zoid wrote on Mon, 16 February 2004 05:53

All this emphasis on diplomacy is somewhat sickening,actually. Personally, I hate diplomacy...

But if you don't do it and your neighbours do it you are at a great disadvantage. In one game I decided to be the nasty guy (a slow-tech game, a pretty fast WM), but still ended doing diplo. I just can't afford attacking every neighbour.

Quote:

It never fails - almost immediately someone is contacting me wanting me to agree not to go past some line. Say I agree. Next turn someone else is wanting to cut me off from another direction the same way. Next turn it's someone else.

Happens to me quite often. I just politely refuse his offer explaining I currently don't know enough to make such a deal, but I'll be ready to discuss it after I gain more info. Works quite good. If he starts killing my scouts I kill his every one I can reach (usually done with 2-3 DDs, as I build gates immediately when a planet can afford them). I may be doing that wrong, but so far it worked for me.

My main problem with diplomacy is time. It takes so much darn time to make all needed messages, in the proper wording and tone. Combine that with a lot of MM and you get a guy with a lack of sleep almost every night .
BR, Iztok

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zoid, Great use of emoticons!

Oh, yeah, I agreed with the content, too.
Being right is ok, but I prefer to survive.
I would say more, but why ruin my reputation of hit and run Forum attacks?

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