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Ron wrote on Tue, 30 December 2003 23:59

Maybe you guys should duel each other to see whose right.

Sure... good point... maybe duels help. Who hosts? Is it possible to duel at AH?

I duel OBRM+no immunities HG versus non OBRM+ one immune HG in small sparse. Same PRT to make things equal. The one who is dead didnt win.

... ok i probably win it before 2450 so the miner race cant even take the advantage of its remote miners that must appear at 2460.

Okay...Other option...
I duel HP+AR team versus -f in small normal. HP has same PRT as -f to make things equal. If that team is not dead at 2450 it won.

At least there may be something to learn while arguing here does seemingly give nothing.

[Updated on: Tue, 30 December 2003 17:53]

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Say I have a better Idea:
Design the best OBRM race you can with GenReseach (?), give it to me so I can alter it to be a non OBRM race- the alterations will be minimal so all things equal it will be OBRM vs. NONOBRM. Set the production que and reseach to tech and generate until I get con12. Start the game.

This way we would be on the equal footing when the action starts and the result will be more dependant on race desigh than on player skill (I know it is hard to belive)

Forgive me father for I have sinned, and I am so %$#@ scared of this fight. I feel I'll get my newbie's butt kicked by 'im. I just hope he chooses some defensive race like IS or SD so that I can protect my RM's...
Aghem... Bring it ON!!!

[Updated on: Wed, 31 December 2003 11:33]

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Is that Better?

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It seems that there is a bit of misunderstanding concerning the -f strategy . Why would I want to attack as early as 2420 with what?- basooka frigates Do I really look THIS stupid? If I did this, it would be like signing my own death sentance. Just because you can build a frigate horde without hurting your econ doesn't mean that you are READY of war. Those frigate hordes will become obsolete when they arrive at the enemy.

No... I would use a different tactic. -f can't compete economicaly with factory races, BUT they have tactical advantages. These must be used to the full effect if an -f race hopes to survive for any prolonged period of time. All factory races have one fatal flaw- they HAVE factories AND they have expensive tech to pay for them. They rely on economy to reseach- and it takes time and resources to build an economy. Here in lies the weakness. Take a typical factory race world- fairly low value (lack of immunity?) and low defences, germanium shortage and probably no significant orbital defences, let alone planetary defences. What does it take to level such a world- 5-10 stealth bombers LBU depending on industrialization level. The recovery time?

3-4 turns to let the mining up to significant level, 7 turns (at least) to build the factories back up. 1-2 turns to set up a space station + more time to arm it AND then you can buld your fleet up again- if you have the minerals that is, oh you also need to build the defences to prevent this from happening again. That's like 10+ turns after initial bombardment that the colony is complitely indefensible. Most likely that LBU raid will happen again before the defences are up. What's the recovery time for a simular LBU raid on -f? 3-4 turns to get the mines started- IF you rely on planetary mines.

The goal of -f to stay competitive is therefore NOT to kill the opposition but to cripple it with LBU so they have to compete with you on equal terms- without factories. You don't need a superior force to achieve this- you need a LOCAL superior force.

An -f race cannot compete with factory races in a arms race, and therefore it needs to reach other force multiplier gadgets that are force MULTILIERS that factory races cannot get early because of tech settings.

To simply put my strategy with -f races would not be to kill the earlies because I can go to war the earliest. It would be different.

Stage one: exploration/colonization/breakpoint reseach

Stage two: a) instead of "frigate hordes" I build defensive hordes- minelayers- well armed space docks etc.
b)I will offer what I have the most of- superior tech in propulsion, energy, electronics, construction or whatever in exchange for TERRITORY- it is much better to ASK for more territory than to TAKE it.

Stage three: economic maximazation- I fill in my worlds and get instant 2.5 increase in econ that I use to boost my reseach to my target levels that are needed to have a superior fighting force. The exact targets vary but the goal is to build a fleet that is capable of destroying anything that factory races can reseach in any foreseeable future.

Stage Four: Fleet/defence building- to build a strong defence and then adequate offence with ALOT of LBU bombers.

Stage Four: Debilitation Wars- use the attack fleet to debilitate chosen enemies- DEBILITATE not kill. While defence fleets stall ineventable retaliation from the number supperior enemy- the goal is to waste their attack fleet fighting against cheaper defence- starbases, missile platforms, mines etc... At this stage lots of remote miners should be build to have an adequate supply of minerals for indeffinite shipbuilding.

Stage Five: Hit and Run Guerilla war- using the offensive fleet most of the galaxy must be involved in a massive war where factories are destroyed as soon as they are build (or nearly), use the allies from tech trade to help you.

Factory races CANNOT compete in THIS kind of war with -f races and hence they eventually all perish. Note that diplomacy is essantial- not the usual "a

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alexdstewart wrote on Wed, 31 December 2003 03:08

Factory races CANNOT compete in THIS kind of war with -f races and hence they eventually all perish.

How many games have you won using this strategy?

Regards,
Tim

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0/0 Why?
There is a demented example of this strategy in Stars! FAQ if you are wondering... Care to look at it? It is under "Official Strategy Guide" or something like that. It is the only real life example in that section so U canna miss it. Some mistakes were made by the -f race in that example and it is an old example so it might not be as applicable. In that example the factory race had double the res of that -f race and a much better tech and operational fleet. Yet it was destroyed 30 turns after starting the war. If this does not demonstrate the principle, I don't know what will.

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alexdstewart wrote on Wed, 31 December 2003 08:08

Just because you can build a frigate horde without hurting your econ doesn't mean that you are READY of war. Those frigate hordes will become obsolete when they arrive at the enemy.

Generally true, although it can work using the element of suprise against say a 1WW race inconjunction with bombers.

Quote:

All factory races have one fatal flaw- they HAVE factories AND they have expensive tech to pay for them.

Not true. A lot of quick start factory races have narrow hab and 3.5 cheap techs. 1WW races are a common example of this but there are plenty of others.

Quote:

The goal of -f to stay competitive is therefore NOT to kill the opposition but to cripple it with LBU so they have to compete with you on equal terms- without factories. You don't need a superior force to achieve this- you need a LOCAL superior force.

Not true
Time is often against -f races, and they need to constantly expand or die. That means killing their immediate neighbours, then killing the next nearest and so on, because they need so much space and real estate to generate any meaningful resources.

Quote:

b)I will offer what I have the most of- superior tech in propulsion, energy, electronics, construction or whatever in exchange for TERRITORY- it is much better to ASK for more territory than to TAKE it.

Very few decent players would seriously consider giving you planets in exchange for tech. Planets are the most valuable long term resource in the game, while tech is a very transient benfit which soon becomes available to all. So I doubt you would ever have a big enough tech advantage to get any takers on that kind of deal. Thats why you need to kill your neighbours

Quote:

Stage three: economic maximazation- I fill in my worlds and get instant 2.5 increase in econ that I use to boost my reseach to my target levels that are needed to have a superior fighting force. The exact targets vary but the goal is to build a fleet that is capable of destroying anything that factory races can reseach in any foreseeable future.

Filling in isn't the instant increase you suggest by any means. It takes time, and it's also a dangerous tactic which ultimate cripples your empire wide growth rate. Still viable if you are sure you can kill your remaining enemies soon after, but if you don't then this tactic probably sealed your own fate.

Quote:

Stage Four: Fleet/defence building- to build a strong defence and then adequate offence with ALOT of LBU bombers.

You seem a bit too focused on defence, which will get you killed eventually with a -f. -f have wide hab, high growth and no factories, so they really don't need to spend anything on defence beyond the bare minimum necessary to function effectively and build war fleets to kill their neighbours. You need to maximise attack at all costs so defensive spending is just going to slow your expansion capability.

Quote:

Stage Four: Debilitation Wars- use the attack fleet to debilitate chosen enemies- DEBILITATE not kill. While defence fleets stall ineventable retaliation from the number supperior enemy- the goal is to waste their attack fleet fighting against cheaper defence- starbases, missile platforms, mines etc... At this stage lots of remote miners should be build to have an adequate supply of minerals for indeffinite shipbuilding.

-f races are the last which should ever need to build remotes. You should be OBRM anyway. Your resources per world are so low that there isn't a mid game mineral crunch for -f races - they just keep on building at a steady slow rate. By the time you get to the stage where minerals are an issue for a -f, the game will probably be over.

Quote:

Factory races CANNOT compete in THIS kind of war with -f races and hence they eventually all perish. Note that diplomacy is essantial- not the usual "attack 'em all because I can" approach advocated.

I'm not sure what level you play at but in most games I have played these tactics would send your -f to an early grave. Diplomacy

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Nevski wrote on Wed, 31 December 2003 17:37

I'm not sure what level you play at but in most games I have played these tactics would send your -f to an early grave. Diplomacy is certainly required, both for tech trading and to isolate one neighbour at a time whilst not having to fight additional enemies on other fronts. But the fact is that -f's need about twice the space of an equivalent factory race to compete in resources and possibly tech. In fact, I've never known a -f race to win any game against *competitive* factory based races played by capable players.

I have to agree with most of that - Alex's theories on effective NF use (especially against HG's and monsters) are largely nonviable against competent opponents. Certainly no NF should have remote miners, and they should be harassing as early as possible to get those high value greens...I do have to take exception to your last sentence however - under good hands, an NF can be a holy terror, just ask Gakl about it some time. They do require a *lot* of MM and good control to perform that well though.

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Quote:

Say I have a better Idea: Design the best OBRM race you can with GenReseach (?), give it to me so I can alter it to be a non OBRM race- the alterations will be minimal so all things equal it will be OBRM vs. NONOBRM. Set the production que and reseach to tech and generate until I get con12. Start the game.

Okay ... if you will be more happy that way.
Small sparse distant, Acc BBS, no random events(to avoid meteores to ruin someones jump).
OBRM by Kotk against RM by alexdstewart.
Turn 0 played to set all the queues (no ships allowed in queues) and scrap all the mobile stuff.
Generated until RM race gets construction 12, then played.

Quote:

I just hope he chooses some defensive race like IS or SD so that I can protect my RM's...

You truely want to play RM SD? Since i threw the gauntlet your right to choose weapon. My Race is here:
SD
GR, OBRM, LSP, RS
1 in 4, gravity centered, temperature centered, radiation right shifted, 18% growth
1000 12/9/16 less germ (x) 10/3/18
wepons cheap, energy & construction normal rest expensive.

Any third party so kind to check the races and setup the game?

[Updated on: Fri, 02 January 2004 07:19]

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Quote:

Not having to worry about building either mines of factories on outer worlds allows them to focus strictly on starbases and shipbuilding. The IT PRT can do this best.

That IT RM NF again? Wanna test it 1:1 against something? I have seen only CA NF winning game. JOAT had fun (main bonus playing NF) but lost.

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Kotk wrote on Thu, 01 January 2004 17:16

My Race is here: SD GR, OBRM, LSP, RS 1 in 4, no immunities, 18% growth 1000 12/9/16 less germ (x) 10/3/18 wepons cheap, energy & construction normal rest expensive.

Amm, Can we also take ISB? Be honest, ISB is a common trait and gives considerable defence advantages. Can we also have same hab or very simular so that we are on more equal footing? If you are concerned about having the same hab, we can still negotiate hab shift. I'll give you the Exact final race design so that we know each other weaknesses and and strenghts.

I will only drop OBRM, RS (I HATE RS) and pay for it by mine settings and hab if I only need a few more pts.

Also, can we have dense small/normal small? Having only 24 planets is a bit- lame... too easy to find the RM fleets.

What do yea say to that?

[Updated on: Fri, 02 January 2004 01:12]

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alexdstewart wrote on Fri, 02 January 2004 07:05

Amm, Can we also take ISB? Be honest, ISB is a common trait and gives considerable defence advantages.

I don't find ISB that common, I only use it with AR or when I have a race that needs to expand fast. That means the most important is the space dock for fuel and to build light ships. Not for the ultra station and for the more weap you can put on that, starbases become sitting ducks when you bring a few scouts with a laser.

Quote:

Can we also have same hab or very simular so that we are on more equal footing? If you are concerned about having the same hab, we can still negotiate hab shift. I'll give you the Exact final race design so that we know each other weaknesses and and strenghts.

In a duel you should take the same habs! What are you going to do? Peacefully intersettle?

Quote:

I will only drop OBRM, RS (I HATE RS) and pay for it by mine settings and hab if I only need a few more pts.

You HATE RS??? Heretic! It's one of the most beautiful LRTs and it even gives you a few RW points, and with too many LRT's it only costs you very little. When are you putting armor on your ships? FF? No, since that means no slot for shields. DD? No, gets too heavy. CC? No, same reason as FF. BB? No, since that makes them less gate-able. Nubs with armor?
Ok, there are a few times that I will use armor (missile BBs sometimes and of course the DD sweepers). Anyway, let's not discuss RS here, it has been discussed a million of times already. Like or not like ...

mch

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Micha wrote on Fri, 02 January 2004 03:45

alexdstewart wrote on Fri, 02 January 2004 07:05 Amm, Can we also take ISB? Be honest, ISB is a common trait and gives considerable defence advantages. I don't find ISB that common, I only use it with AR or when I have a race that needs to expand fast. That means the most important is the space dock for fuel and to build light ships. Not for the ultra station and for the more weap you can put on that, starbases become sitting ducks when you bring a few scouts with a laser.

ISB is fairly common with -f designs however. Since they often don't have a large resource base putting up a cheap dock is often useful for getting the race expanding and able to build early ships. A station costing 500+ res would take a -f colony multiple years to build, whereas a dock will go up quickly and be of immediate use.

- Kurt

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overworked wrote on Fri, 02 January 2004 12:52

Micha wrote on Fri, 02 January 2004 03:45 I don't find ISB that common, I only use it with AR or when I have a race that needs to expand fast. That means the most important is the space dock for fuel and to build light ships. Not for the ultra station and for the more weap you can put on that, starbases become sitting ducks when you bring a few scouts with a laser. ISB is fairly common with -f designs however. Since they often don't have a large resource base putting up a cheap dock is often useful for getting the race expanding and able to build early ships. A station costing 500+ res would take a -f colony multiple years to build, whereas a dock will go up quickly and be of immediate use. - Kurt

True, but the race in question is a HG with good factories, it can easily live without ISB ...
Hm, no IFE, so not that easily without ISB fuel-wise however it's an SD so he can some good fuel boosters at his disposal from the start ...

mch

[Edit: fixed quote]

[Updated on: Fri, 02 January 2004 07:16]

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Quote:

Amm, Can we also take ISB? Be honest, ISB is a common trait and gives considerable defence advantages.

Take ISB if you want. I do not want to. ISB is a must for -f and AR. May be OK for IT with CE. Jumpstart with GR where i probably have quite ok prop by the time you reach con 12 also i got SFX so need no refuel docks? The station miniaturize better than ultra thanks to GR and i wont be building midgame warships at docks anyway.

Quote:

Can we also have same hab or very simular so that we are on more equal footing? If you are concerned about having the same hab, we can still negotiate hab shift.

No concerns about hab here ... i wont be intersettling with you whatever hab you got. I planned to take it gravity centered, temperature centered, radiation right shifted. Do the same then. Forgot to mention in description so i update my post...

Quote:

I'll give you the Exact final race design so that we know each other weaknesses and and strenghts. I will only drop OBRM, RS (I HATE RS) and pay for it by mine settings and hab if I only need a few more pts.

For me its enough if you describe it like i did. I honestly suggest to keep the RS and not to take ISB. But its up to you. Just any SD HG RM race you want me to wipe the floor with.

Quote:

Also, can we have dense small/normal small? Having only 24 planets is a bit- lame... too easy to find the RM fleets.

You mix up something 24 planets is tiny sparse! Small sparse has over 90 planets on 800x800ly square. Enough room for two there?
Small normal is about 130 planets. It starts to get too lot for little friendly duel.

[Updated on: Fri, 02 January 2004 07:17]

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Grr... Me being absent minded again...
I meant normal tiny/dense tiny
But sparse small will be just fine for me

Hey listen, if you are even a fraction as experienced as your posts seem to indicate, I'll need a bit more practice against human players (a lot more actually). So do you mind waiting for a few months?

You can consider argument won by your side untill I'll prove you wrong ... eventually

And yes you can call me chicken all you like..

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Thanks,
Best victory is always the one you won without fighting.

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Kotk wrote on Sat, 03 January 2004 10:16

Thanks, Best victory is always the one you won without fighting.

I am still up for a game when my current one is done. I have been doing some tests and so far see promise with several combinations.

I think the mistake most people make with remote mining is they have bad local mines, when what you want is a mix of both types. The remotes save you from wanting any mines on the poor mineral worlds and needing to build as many local mines.

As for Alex, I think he fails to realise that you learn the most from the pros, even if you get your butt kicked.

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Kotk wrote on Sat, 03 January 2004 12:16

Thanks, Best victory is always the one you won without fighting.

I AM still in for a duel a few months time...

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