Home » Stars! 2.6/7 » The Academy » Minesweeping by chaff
Minesweeping by chaff |
Thu, 15 May 2003 12:08 |
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mazda | | Lieutenant | Messages: 655
Registered: April 2003 Location: Reading, UK | |
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Does anybody else out there consider the method of sweeping mines by chucking lots of small ships at them a little odd ?
Ok. Everyone does it, but do you think it is a sensible mechanism for removing mines, or perhaps a sensible idea, but the sums aren't quite right ?
Was it intended by the designers or did they just get their sums wrong ?
Consider this !
Mines are space at 1 per l.y. squared.
Now this is a massive area.
A ship (say maximum size 1000m in length) that detonates one mine would only really detonate one mine.
So perhaps it's just the reduction in the minefield size after a hit that is wrong ?
M
[Updated on: Thu, 15 May 2003 12:11] Report message to a moderator
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Re: Minesweeping by chaff |
Thu, 15 May 2003 13:21 |
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But you have to consider all the pieces of the ships and the mines that fly everywhere at warp 10 after the ship gets blown up. Not to mention these ships carry antimatter in their fuel tanks and that would make a big explosion as well. What's a little strange is that an exploding ship on the battle board doesn't damage any ships near it.
Because OOMATTERReport message to a moderator
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Re: Minesweeping by chaff |
Thu, 15 May 2003 19:05 |
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Also consider other such "odd" things with minefields...
Mines do not move... so how come minelayers sit in the middle... and yet the field expands
How come mini and super mine layers don't get damage by detonating mines? Surely if mines can't damage them then thay can run through enemy minefields without worry? How come one ship sweeping a minefield on the far south can sweep the mines in the far north... yet has to be in orbit of planet to attack the starbase?
And never mind the bloody plumbers, have you EVER EVER EVER seen even a single school? Are we to believe that in a universe where faster than light travel is possible there's not a single piece of information that isn't handed down generation to generation??
And wot about those stargates eh lads?? Home come instantaneous travel from point A to point B takes a full year????
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Re: Minesweeping by chaff |
Fri, 16 May 2003 20:50 |
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I thought these things were OBVIOUS. After all, even the most dullwitted Smaugarian knows these things!
freakyboy wrote on Thu, 15 May 2003 19:05 | Also consider other such "odd" things with minefields...
Mines do not move... so how come minelayers sit in the middle... and yet the field expands
How come mini and super mine layers don't get damage by detonating mines? Surely if mines can't damage them then thay can run through enemy minefields without worry? How come one ship sweeping a minefield on the far south can sweep the mines in the far north... yet has to be in orbit of planet to attack the starbase?
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A minefield works under a hive mind - every mine in a minefield is linked to other ones. As soon as some are laid, all mines are pushed out to accommodate the new residents. As soon as some are lost, mines shift to fill in the gap to protect the all-important juicy center.
And mine layers are equipped with special technology which enables them to interact with the minefield's hive mind. This drives the exploding mines away from them (see bottom) meaning they are immune to their own explosions.
Quote: | And never mind the bloody plumbers, have you EVER EVER EVER seen even a single school? Are we to believe that in a universe where faster than light travel is possible there's not a single piece of information that isn't handed down generation to generation??
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Information pills.
'Woah, I know FTL!'
Quote: | And wot about those stargates eh lads?? Home come instantaneous travel from point A to point B takes a full year????
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Bureaucracy. Do you have any idea how long it takes to get a stargate travel permit? 1 year!
As for the original objection, the answer is easy - the faster you go, the more attractive you are to mines. At warp 4, you can pass through harmlessly, not disturbing anything present. Due to the size of space relative to the size of the mines, the chance of hitting a mine that isn't actively pursuing you is infinitisimmely small. SS, because of their natural stealth, can go 1 warp faster, and SD have all their ships equipped with 'Someone Else's Mine' fields which allows them to go 2 warps faster. At warp 10, every mine in the field is after you, so you'd better duck! :duck:
What I want to know is, who are the Smaugarians, and why is one of my ships always named after them?!??!?!
they made me do itReport message to a moderator
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Re: Minesweeping by chaff |
Mon, 19 May 2003 09:06 |
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O.K. I'll add my two cents to the mix.
First, chaff cost both resources and minerals so I don't think reducing a minefield with chaff is too cheap. If you build overlapping minefields, then chaff sweeping is even more expensive. minefields are already very powerful and shouldn't dominate the game anymore than they do already. Everybody keeps theorizing about the scientific bases to support game mechanics but let's remember, there are no faster than light ships, space mines, Big Muthas or small ships built to act as chaff in space.
If you want to draw parallels let's do it to actual military history. Mines have always been an obstacle, not a barrier. They will slow down an enemy, inflict minor losses, but that is all. And as technology has improved, they have become less and less effective over time. During the Gulf war, the Iraqi minefields barely presented any obstacle at all.
This is true in Stars as well. Prior to decent armour and shields, SD minefields rule, and non-SD minefields are very strong. As Gatlings and Cruisers start to appear, they become less powerful. By the time chaff becomes very cheap and Nubians appear, mines only slow an enemy down a little.
I know this does not explain the "Science" behind mines, but it does how that Stars minefields have a similar effect to the "real" counterpart.
Paladin
"There is no substitute for Integrity"Report message to a moderator
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Re: Minesweeping by chaff |
Mon, 19 May 2003 10:42 |
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mazda | | Lieutenant | Messages: 655
Registered: April 2003 Location: Reading, UK | |
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Paladin wrote on Mon, 19 May 2003 14:06 |
... Prior to decent armour and shields, SD minefields rule, and non-SD minefields are very strong. As Gatlings and Cruisers start to appear, they become less powerful. By the time chaff becomes very cheap and Nubians appear, mines only slow an enemy down a little.
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I sort of get this explanation.
You are saying that it is a natural progression of different phases throughout the game ?
Until chaff-sweeping becomes cheap enough to be just that, then it is better to sweep with (armored) Cruisers, or whatever takes your PRT fancy, and try and keep them alive and actually sweep with weapons rather than sweeping by detonation.
M
[Updated on: Mon, 19 May 2003 11:34] Report message to a moderator
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Re: Minesweeping by chaff |
Mon, 19 May 2003 10:59 |
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regiss | | Petty Officer 1st Class | Messages: 65
Registered: November 2002 | |
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IMHO, Chaff Sweeping should be considered a cheat, as it involves
numbering of fleets on purpose and the other side can't really
do anything to counter such form of an attack.
Of course, that would make me to think Split Fleet Dodge is a
cheat also, but I still have to see it used effectively.
All IMHO, of course.
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Re: Minesweeping by chaff |
Wed, 21 May 2003 17:38 |
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Sotek | | Chief Warrant Officer 2 | Messages: 167
Registered: November 2002 | |
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Completely disagree chaff-sweeping is a cheat.
Hell, minefields only really matter, lateish game, *against* chaff.
(You don't send your mainfleet ahead of the chaff because it will *die* against their chaffed fleet, and you don't send your mainfleet with chaff through minefields above safe speed, because your *chaff* will die if you hit.)
But skirmishers will routinely run through minefields going "Lah de dah" because you can afford the damage more than you can afford the time or to let them be caught.
As has been said, minefields are an obstacle, not a barrier.
All they do is slow things down and buy time, they don't *stop* them. (SD exploding fields an exception, and those again really only against chaff, once BBs and up are fielded in numbers.)
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Re: Minesweeping by chaff |
Thu, 22 May 2003 07:41 |
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mazda wrote on Thu, 15 May 2003 12:08 | Does anybody else out there consider the method of sweeping mines by chucking lots of small ships at them a little odd ?
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Crash sweeping goes beyond using chaff to do it in any case.
You see the big, multiple fleet, chaff sweeps when a field has to go down *now* for a following fleet to immediately use.
Given longer time ranges you see sweepers (especially specialized designs) purposely do high speed runs into minefields. One of the earliest Stars! articles I ever saw on minefields talked about sending groups of individual beamers (BB or Nubian) into minefields at high warp - figuring that one of the five or six sent would make it far in, and then sweep most of the field.
From my POV you have four methods for getting an attack fleet through a minefield:
1. Wade through at the safe speed
PRO:
o Minimum number of fleets used
o No ship losses/damage (barring SD exploding standard fields)
CON:
o SLOW, very slow.
o Tends to telegraph your target to the opponent
o Easy for enemy to shift minelayers behind you and wall you in; this can be a very *bad* thing.
2. Charge in at a higher, potentially unsafe speed
PRO:
o Mininum number of fleets used
o Potential tactical surprise
CON:
o A minehit stops you. Kills chaff, most SFX designs, most non-B52 hull bombers, and generally messes things up. A heavy hit being nastier still depending on ship designs.
3. Advance use of sweepers. They could have "waded" in previously, or be doing a "charge and sweep" a year in advance of the main fleet. Various tactics available.
PRO:
o Generally safe for the attack fleet
o A good sweeping job might set up a potential "fork" attack.
[see below for meaning of "fork attack" if you don't know it.]
CON:
o Gives opponent notification that you're interested in that area
o Uses up fleets. And design slots if you have a specialized sweeper or skirmisher out there.
4. The classic "chaff sweep"
PRO:
o Usually safe for the attack fleet
o Potential tactical surprise
CON:
o Uses up a pile of fleets
o Chaff losses (minor, but still losses)
Option Zero of course is to kill his minelayers beforehand. OR to be playing against a Warmonger without allies or a certain MT-supplied part.
"fork attack": I think "fork" is a term borrowed from chess. Essentially getting an attack fleet into a position were it can make viable attacks on multiple targets (usually planets). Usually puts the opponent on the horns of a dilemma since (hopefully) he lacks the forces to successfully defend all the potential targets simutaneously. Options abound at this point.
- Kurt
Time flies like an arrow.
Fruit flies like a banana.
- Groucho MarxReport message to a moderator
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Re: Minesweeping by chaff |
Thu, 22 May 2003 13:52 |
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You are correct. The term "fork" is used in chess when two or more pieces are theatened in the same move. The classic example: a knight moves into a square that threatens both the enemy king and queen in the same turn from a safe position. Therefore, the only move for the enemy is to move the king and lose the queen.
Paladin
"There is no substitute for Integrity"Report message to a moderator
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Re: Minesweeping by chaff - QUESTION |
Sat, 24 May 2003 04:39 |
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regiss | | Petty Officer 1st Class | Messages: 65
Registered: November 2002 | |
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Quote: | when you chaffsweep a SD minefield and attack the same turn,
you get the damage from detonation even if you swept the whole field.
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I guess, that shows, that in The Order of Events, checking if
the field still exists happens after sweeping (not before
detonation - another example of Chaff Sweeping being a bug,
therefore cheat).
Quote: | how can it be that still it detonates?
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If field exists (detonates) and has 0 mines, it's radius would
be 0 l.y. And detonation would happen in the circle of
COORDS+radius, what leaves us with detonation only at one point
(where the field resided).
Quote: | what if the 2 detonating fields belong to 2 different SDs? double damage?
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Nope, You still get damage only from the lower_player_ID field.
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Re: Minesweeping by chaff - QUESTION |
Sat, 24 May 2003 17:48 |
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I thought detonation happened before sweeping, that would explain it. I know it's immediately after movement but before production, so in defending your planet you can detonate on enemy chaff and then churn out 200 of your own and whoop his socks off.
[Updated on: Sat, 24 May 2003 17:50] Report message to a moderator
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