Home » Primary Racial Traits » WM » WM in a Nubless game?
WM in a Nubless game? |
Thu, 01 March 2007 08:57 |
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Carn | | Officer Cadet 4th Year | Messages: 284
Registered: May 2003 | |
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In normal game WM seems to lose nearly all advantages, when nubs appear.
But if Nubs are forbidden, how good is WM?
Can WM take due to the advantages of BC and DN take a twice as large JOAT or is the advantage lesser?
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Re: WM in a Nubless game? |
Thu, 01 March 2007 11:46 |
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I don't think that it is possible to answere such a question.
Certainly too much relies on many other factors: skill, allies, location...
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Re: WM in a Nubless game? |
Thu, 01 March 2007 14:28 |
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iztok | | Commander | Messages: 1210
Registered: April 2003 Location: Slovenia, Europe | |
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Hi!
Carn wrote on Thu, 01 March 2007 14:57 | But if Nubs are forbidden, how good is WM?
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Excelent, if on attack, as usual. Slightly less weak on defense as usual.
If nubian hull is forbidden, nothing beats Dreadnaught pound for pound. Just slightly more expensive than BB and with significantly more slots like BB. Add there the WM's 25% discount on weapons and 0.5 battle speed bonus, and the pound for pound comparisson becomes even nastier.
Quote: | Can WM take due to the advantages of BC and DN take a twice as large JOAT or is the advantage lesser?
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Only in very special circumstances, like in late game the WM in a surprise attack with a perfectly tailored fleet kills the main fleet of JoaT, and losses only support ships (chaff, shredders...). In other situations IMO almost impossible. Double the size means double the minerals, twice as fast ship production, and twice the strategic depth the WM should travel. And when the planet killing starts, will the WM lose his planets twice as fast as JoaT.
BR, Iztok
[Updated on: Thu, 01 March 2007 14:37] Report message to a moderator
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Re: WM in a Nubless game? |
Thu, 01 March 2007 17:33 |
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I'll hazard a guess at a slightly more controlled situation...
1 v 1
Factoried v factoried
Balanced player ability
Both players are expecting war
I think if the JOAT:WM economy ratio is:
2:1 - The WM loses. Badly.
1:1 - The JOAT loses.
3:2 - Harder to call... I think the JOAT will win, as long as he manages to engage WM worlds. Minefields and penscanning chaff will prove critical. If the JOAT loses the edge these give him at the start of the war, then he will likely lose.
[Updated on: Thu, 01 March 2007 17:37] Report message to a moderator
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Re: WM in a Nubless game? |
Tue, 10 June 2008 09:14 |
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neilhoward wrote on Sat, 07 June 2008 18:55 | Thus Nubs should not matter to a WM. The DN give more options for offense and the nubs cost 1/2 as much. If a WM is playing right she will get newbs soon after the opponent from combat. That tech makes DNs much less expensive.
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DNs are heavy & lack flexibility compared to nubs. The nubs should win if the design is right. Take beam ships:
1. DN with AMP. The nubs will use MegaD/Synchro & get 2 free shots before being cornered because the nubs always move last.
2. DN with MegaD/Synchro. The nubs will use AMP + 3 Nexus (to overcome the DN init advantage) & get in the first shot assuming that the BS of the DN/nub combo is appropriate - i.e. they move last & get within range in the same round. The Nub weaponry is way more powerful so that first shot is devastating.
Then the nubs can have, say, 12 BDs (& 9 caps) meaning that they hit hard while deflecting 46% of the DN fire. The nubs also gate without damage, are much cheaper & can form bigger stacks.
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Re: WM in a Nubless game? |
Wed, 11 June 2008 03:57 |
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Micha | | | Messages: 2342
Registered: November 2002 Location: Belgium GMT +1 | |
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magic9mushroom wrote on Wed, 11 June 2008 06:59 | No, I'm suggesting they're more than a match for them. Consider: twice as many slots for the same hull price, plus 25% discount on weaps, plus 8 free init, plus good speed without overthrusters. Of course, Nubs have the advantage of unlimited electricals, and BDs, but those can only go so far.
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Ah, but the other is WM as well of course if you want to compare! So also discount (matters less, since nub won't mount as many weapons) and also speed.
As for defs going "only so far", they can go a looong way. Every def diminishes that huge firepower by 10%, there is no cap like with eny capacitators ...
A lot will of course depend on fleet design as well. Chaff, anti-chaff, anti-anti-chaff, battle orders (disengaging missile boats), specific designs, counter designs etc.
Possible solution, take two identical races and with same resources and minerals deisgn a DN and a nub beamer, let them fight it out.
BTW, this discussion is one of the ever recurring threads, and always fun.
mch
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Re: WM in a Nubless game? |
Wed, 11 June 2008 10:35 |
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vonKreedon | | Lieutenant | Messages: 610
Registered: March 2003 Location: Seattle, WA USA | |
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Nubs have serious advantages over DNs for beamers. You really can't overestimate the value of loading up with deflectors, while the DNs can have two deflectors at most. Plus the Nubs are way cheaper than DNs, (DN base costs: Ir=123, Br=26, Gr=22, Rsrc=242 vs. Nub: Ir=75, Br=12, Gr=12, Rsrc=150) so you can overwhelm the beam DNs with highly deflected and large shield pooled stacks of AMP Nubs. You don't need to jam the Nubs because your chaff jam for them. Plus you can gate the Nubs with no damage, something you won't manage with the DN unless you are gating through an allied IT's gates.
While the DN does make a better missile platform this is less relevant by the time Nubs are available because the economics of the end game tend to rule out viably producing effective numbers of missile boats relative to producing beamers, particularly given massive amounts of chaff. And again there is the issue of gating, which is significant in the end game unless you are playing defense on a decreasing front, in which case a WM is screwed anyway.
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Re: WM in a Nubless game? |
Wed, 11 June 2008 19:12 |
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magic9mushroom | | Commander | Messages: 1361
Registered: May 2008 | |
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vonKreedon wrote on Thu, 12 June 2008 00:35 | Nubs have serious advantages over DNs for beamers. You really can't overestimate the value of loading up with deflectors, while the DNs can have two deflectors at most. Plus the Nubs are way cheaper than DNs, (DN base costs: Ir=123, Br=26, Gr=22, Rsrc=242 vs. Nub: Ir=75, Br=12, Gr=12, Rsrc=150) so you can overwhelm the beam DNs with highly deflected and large shield pooled stacks of AMP Nubs. You don't need to jam the Nubs because your chaff jam for them. Plus you can gate the Nubs with no damage, something you won't manage with the DN unless you are gating through an allied IT's gates.
While the DN does make a better missile platform this is less relevant by the time Nubs are available because the economics of the end game tend to rule out viably producing effective numbers of missile boats relative to producing beamers, particularly given massive amounts of chaff. And again there is the issue of gating, which is significant in the end game unless you are playing defense on a decreasing front, in which case a WM is screwed anyway.
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Objection: a DN hull's cost with full miniaturisation (which there will be if you're comparing to Nubs) is 84I, 18B, 15G, 165R. Not substantially greater than that of a Nubian. A decked out beamer DN has almost identical Iron cost to a decked out beamer nub, and similar Germanium cost too. The difference is the gigantic Boron and resource cost of such a DN, because of the 38 AMPs. And it has significantly more firepower to make up for the 4-7 less defs it has.
Edit: I agree that Nubs have their place in a WM fleet, but I'm simply saying that DNs are right up there too.
[Updated on: Wed, 11 June 2008 19:14] Report message to a moderator
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Re: WM in a Nubless game? |
Wed, 11 June 2008 22:16 |
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magic9mushroom | | Commander | Messages: 1361
Registered: May 2008 | |
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Okay, here are the calcs.
Nub design = Trans-star, 3 AMP, 3 cap, 3 CPS, 3 def
DN design = Trans-star, organic, CPS, 38 AMP, 8 cap, 2 def.
Miniaturised to full, with non-BET WM.
Damage (nubian) = 9189
Damage (nubian vs. DN) = 7443
Damage (DN) = 35271
Damage (DN vs. Nubian) = 13665
HP (DN) = 9900
HP (nubian) = 9500
Iron (DN) = 179
Iron (nubian) = 174
Res (DN) = 1196
Res (Nubian) = 546
Basically put, iron for iron they'll be equal, and one DN will easily kill one nubian in one shot, and have more init.
DN wins easily, in other words.
However, I do think there is still a place for nubs in a WM's fleet, to fill the role of a gateable defense fleet.
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Re: WM in a Nubless game? |
Thu, 12 June 2008 01:57 |
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LEit | | Lt. Commander | Messages: 879
Registered: April 2003 Location: CT | |
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Your DN has speed 2.25, which may be a problem in some cases, it will take 4 rounds to reach the last row, whereas speed 2.5 will take only 3 rounds. Also neither design has any jamming, wich will really hurt when chaff is gone.
Also, a nubian shouldn't have 3 CPS nor 3 AMP, 2 of each is enough if you have RS (and most WMs should). If you don't have RS, I actually think you should go for 1 CPS, don't try to match shields, go for cheap.
Anyway, 4 jammers to the DN and dropping the organic armor (making it easier to gate and saving germanium), and comparing them to a 4 slot deflector nubian, the DN is still better, especially if you include init. But the Nubian has speed 2.5, and is easily gatable, much cheaper in resources and bora to build.
Here's an arbitrary formula for the late game cost of a ship: 10 times iron cost, 1 times bora cost, 5 times germ cost, and 1 times resource. By that metric and with 1000 nubians to 625 DNs (same cost by that formula), according to my battle by excel... the Nubians win, with 579 nubians left.
This is actually much better for the DNs then I'd expected, and if I ever have a WM in a late game fight that's even, I'll actually have to think about DN vs nubian.
I'm sorry I changed the criteria from what I'd asked at first, but the other minerals and resources do have some impact - and the results seemed a bit wrong. I'd still use nubians if there was no existing fleet. But given that you'll be able to build the DNs first, keeping with the same design is a large consideration.
- LEitReport message to a moderator
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Re: WM in a Nubless game? |
Thu, 12 June 2008 02:14 |
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Why would I throw away one of my key advantages (moving last). If your DN is equiped with AMPs then my Nub uses MegaD/SS - if your DN is equiped with MegaD/SS then my nub uses AMP.
The following is a "cost per kill" analysis also using max. minimisation, no BET. Note that the nub designs are not necessarily the best ones, they are just my gut feelings:
DN AMP: Trans-star, 8 CPS, 8 Org, 38 AMP, 8 cap, 2 def. Cost (I/B/G/R): 179/664/162/1196
Nub MegaD/SS: Trans-star, 3 CPS, 9 MegaD, 3 SS, 9 cap, 2 MJ,9 def. Cost (I/B/G/R): 116/237/116/562
# Nubs needed to destroy 50 DN = 54 (10 Survive}. Note that the 10 Survivers are included in the cost as if lost:
Cost per DN destroyed: 125.3/356/125.3/607
Cost per DN: 179/664/162/1196
DN MegaD/SS: Trans-star, 8 CPS, 8 Org, 28 MegaD, 10 SS, 8 cap, 2 def. Cost (I/B/G/R): 179/550/212/1116
Nub AMP: Trans-star, 3 CPS, 6 AMP, 9 cap, 2 MJ,3 Nexus, 12 def. Cost (I/B/G/R): 116/144/170/460
# Nubs needed to destroy 50 DN = 59 (8 Survive}. Note that the 8 Survivers are included in the cost as if lost:
Cost per DN destroyed: 136.9/169.9/200.6/542.8
Cost per DN: 179/550/212/1116
The nubs are cheaper in every respect.
Also, mineral crunches occur for Bora too, not just Iron (& Germ).
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Re: WM in a Nubless game? |
Thu, 12 June 2008 02:33 |
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magic9mushroom | | Commander | Messages: 1361
Registered: May 2008 | |
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Objection: of course DNs can be counterdesigned by nubians. I never said they couldn't be. However, that doesn't do anything about the fact that AMP DNs will kill AMP nubs where iron is limiting. Also, MegaD DNs will kill MegaD nubs.
Also, if I do choose to go with MegaD DNs, I may well put on a slot of nexi to outinit you again, and you die.
You've forgotten that I can counterdesign just as fast as you can, the only difference being that if you out-counter-design me in a battle, you still lose most ships, whereas if I out-counter-design you, I win with 50% still alive. You can't just say "I'll always have the design which is best for killing you" because despite the mobility advantages of Nubs, I can still often trick you. And of course, we're talking DN vs. WM nub here, for non-WM nub both will win, with DN probably taking less casualties due to higher divisor.
@LEit: The organic armour was put on because I wouldn't be gating DNs anyway, and it only costs 1kT germ and 5 res each.
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