Home » Primary Racial Traits » HE » Meta-morph
Re: Meta-morph |
Sun, 25 January 2004 16:19 |
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mlaub | | Lieutenant | Messages: 744
Registered: November 2003 Location: MN, USA | |
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Kotk wrote on Sun, 25 January 2004 05:15 |
The real beauty of HE is not in the first 50 years, where 5% is strong enough. Yes you cannot get 35k and Jugger BBs in real game by 2450 like in packed testbed, but then again... who can anyway? JOATs, ITs and CAs but these are boring. It is the next 10 years that will usually turn the tables completely.
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Actually, I had a pretty good rant about this in the NG a while ago. People seem to be overly emphasizing the resources @ Y50 thing. Yes, it can make a difference, yes you can overpower the expensive techs and expensive industry, but is it the *only* sound strategy for HE? No, not IMO. In most cases, I'd opt for a 4% HE, if there is a no CA rule.
My best 4% HE *ever*, hit 12k@Y50. Go ahead, laugh all you want, but that same race consistently hits Weap 16, Con 13, and Prop 12, and if IIRC Energy 14 at the same year. That was not in a testbed, folks, that was in several games. Resources consistently double every 10 years after Y50, till the end of the game (the race is pop growth and planet limited, not resources to build factories). This usually includes while it is at war. With 4.5 cheap techs, and industry costs at a minimum, the actual amount left over from growth cost is actually *more* than most races have, unless they completely abandon tech and growth for a massive ship building campaign.
I've hit Nubs at Y67. If no one has seriously challenged it by Y85, resources should be at 100k, at least...Look out. With more metal than an AR, and an industrial base to match, only a CA can do *better* (eg.. resources alone mean squat if you have no metal.)
-Matt
Global Warming - A climatic change eagerly awaited by most Minnesotans.
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Re: Meta-morph |
Sun, 25 January 2004 21:22 |
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alexdstewart | | Chief Warrant Officer 2 | Messages: 164
Registered: July 2003 Location: Brisbane, QLD. | |
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iztok wrote on Sun, 25 January 2004 20:04 | Hi!
Kotk wrote on Sun, 25 January 2004 12:15 | ...Okay. So 7M pop with 15/8/25 factories gives 33.2K And so i got 33K. Is it difficult to build all fac's in testbed? ...
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Yes. When colonizing an 50% germ world with 4 years growth (55k pop) that planet starts exporting pop in 11th turn, but 380 fac's are built in 17 turns. About 1/3 of testbed planets gets additional pop after turn 33, so they just CAN'T build all fac's.
In my testbeds I pay attention to get planet distribution as close to expected distribution of the game I'm preparing for. If there's more or less planets I change the seed. For a packed uni there are two thresholds: 6-7 planets within single W-9 jump, 25-30 within two W-9 jumps, and mineral-poor HW. I want reliable results, not records.
BR, Iztok
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WHAAAT?!
It is easy as to design factories to grow faster than 10% on thir own power alone. Minerals are hardly an issue with HE, In my exp I had loads and loads of minerals that I canna spend and lots of free res to reseach/build ships without hurtin' econ a bit. Mayhaps yea need to lower the no of fac a bit, so yea can afford force multiplier LPT and cheaper fac instead of more efficient ones??
In the Future there is only WAR...
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Re: Meta-morph |
Mon, 26 January 2004 05:44 |
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Kotk | | Commander | Messages: 1227
Registered: May 2003 | |
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mlaub wrote on Sun, 25 January 2004 23:19 | My best 4% HE *ever*, hit 12k@Y50. Go ahead, laugh all you want, but that same race consistently hits Weap 16, Con 13, and Prop 12, and if IIRC Energy 14 at the same year. That was not in a testbed, folks, that was in several games.
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I've hit Nubs at Y67.
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I fully agree ... but these folks cannot build much ships early and that is 4% HE-s biggest downside. Tune their tech down by slow tech and there HE gets mark4/jihad stuff at 2450, in quite minor numbers.
What is most funny... these things do not actually matter if you win the game or no. See two examples:
My best IT ever (actually the only my own IT i ever played, other two i played as replacement) hit 46K@Y50 and 102k@Y60 in real game. It had nub tech at Y68 but that because it was slow tech game. I did not win that game. Such IT was bad overshot in econ where i am strong enough. My tactics, strategies and diplo lacked.
Now I just won a game with AR that had 6K@2450, 10K@2460, 18K@2470 and only at 2490 it had 60K and reached nubs. Others were fighting each other with Arma BB-s i never built one ... so i was first to reach nubs. At 2520 all suddenly agreed i won the game. Laugh all you want.
So you are correct, 2450 resources do matter nothing.
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Re: Meta-morph |
Mon, 26 January 2004 06:32 |
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Kotk | | Commander | Messages: 1227
Registered: May 2003 | |
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iztok wrote on Mon, 26 January 2004 03:04 | Hi!
Kotk wrote on Sun, 25 January 2004 12:15 | ...Okay. So 7M pop with 15/8/25 factories gives 33.2K And so i got 33K. Is it difficult to build all fac's in testbed? ...
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I want reliable results, not records.
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Hmm... it was not record? It was quickie tiny packed testbed done at Sunday morning, yesterday, after i had not touched HE for about 2 years. It all was done to verify that i remember all correctly and 35K is the packed testbed max for 5% HE.
I designed 3-immune 5% HE, 15/8/25 factories, germ checked, 11/3/24 mines. I started tiny packed ACC bbs no random events game.
I had mineral poor HW (both germ and iron @ 30) and 8 planets within 81 ly.
I colonized about 50 planets by 2425 without scouting and then just transported germ. Too lousily... so 3 planets did not build all factories but had about 250. Hour and half and done.
I got about 33K at 2450 and had weapons 16 and construction 13. 1 planet 17% full, 11 planets 24% full, 40 planets 25% full. Imported planet dump to MS Excel and it say 7.02M pop.
Maybe your problem building factories is that you dislike checking the less germ box? Maybe you do not play it as "no random events" so your colonies get often cometed in tiny? My testbed was not unfair. Send me your most fair and reliable 5% HE testbed setup with turn 0 to vambola . kotkas @ proekspert . ee and let me see what resources i get from it?
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Re: Meta-morph |
Mon, 26 January 2004 17:11 |
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Quote: | Overall it makes no difference if the pop first flies and then grows or first grows and then flies and then grows again...
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Actually it does make a difference. When your factories grow faster than your population, you can tune at what times you are having pop without max factories.
Transit times (which affect pop growth) vary depending on whether you planet hop from existing settlements or perhaps save a turn by going in a straight line from your HW.
Also, at some point warp 10 can kick in for an extra reduction in transit time.
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Re: Meta-morph |
Fri, 30 January 2004 04:00 |
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Quote: |
Correct. Thats why i like other PRTs. I do not like to rely strategically on allies.
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An HE without allies tends to be a tight empire. You don't have the mobillity, but you also don't have as many places to protect either, your core is more isolated.
You want to be ecconomically stronger to compensate for the lack of mobillity, the opposite of an SS who can get by with less.
Lack of gates has an advantage, less threatening. I am faced with several opponents, the nearby enemy HE worlds are seen as the least threat as no gate can pop up.
The HE is often an end game power... and a larger game is more likely to have more endgame. That helps compensate for the horrible mobillity. So do flux capacitors.
But back to Metamorphs... you have lots of slots, not so much armour. So you sometimes want to use inexpensive stuff that uses more slots. For example battle computers rather than super computers, or 35% cloaks rather than 55% cloaks.
And since you can't always win a 'biggest fleet' type contest, you may want to think about Mao style war (which cloaked metamorphs can help). Be content to sometimes slow down rather than destroy the enemy super fleet and try to cause as much damage as possible over the rest of the warfront. A few suprise minefields (to cut off enemy reinforcements), a suprise gate takedown, a little sniping, these are some of the things metamorphs excel at (with the right team of other ships to help).
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Re: Meta-morph |
Fri, 30 January 2004 20:18 |
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Sotek | | Chief Warrant Officer 2 | Messages: 167
Registered: November 2002 | |
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There are (rare. Very rare) times when you want to use cheaper components.
Usually this is when the cheaper components don't have a drawback; cheaper computers on a dreadnaught that's already going to shoot first with disgusting accuracy, or such.
Or maybe for shields; the one short of the best instead of the best, because the best is *expensive*...
Or a sapper frigate will be best with no better than tech 6 shields (or maybe 1 tech 10) because any more doesn't give much of a benefit, and cost matters.
Metamorphs, however, I can't see it.
I can *possibly* see it on a counterdesign, however.
If I need just one more init to beat my opponent, sure, I'll use the cheapest comp in the 1 slot.
I can't see ever using 35% cloaks, however.
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Re: Meta-morph |
Fri, 30 January 2004 20:19 |
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Quote: |
These two sentences do not fit together! If our HE is economically stronger it should *always* try to win the biggest fleet contest on military conflict
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HE lacks gates. Therefore, especally as a loner, it is not always easy to have a bigger SINGLE fleet even when one has more warships. It is easier however to have several large fleets spread over the warfront which lends to more mao style conflict.
In other words, suprise minelay cutoff and other suprises (such as gate takedowns) to slow down the enemies advance with his one big fleet if you can't easily match it. In the meantime you want to be doing more damage on all other parts of the warfront you can.
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Re: Meta-morph |
Fri, 30 January 2004 20:41 |
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It is all a question of resource and mineral costs/verses effectiveness rather than effectiveness per ship. Too much expense in a metamorph with poor armour makes it a prime target if the shields get sapped.
Sometimes a metamorph can be used as to fill roles normally given to a crusier or galleon in a more ecconomical or effective fashion.
For example gatable missile ship... (around 300 kt), lots of free slots after 4 or 5 missiles. One option would include lots of cheaper battle computers to keep resource/mineral costs down and yet be hard to jam and fairly good init.
Another example, budget cloaked minelayer. You only need a few expensive minelayer modules, the rest can be cheap cloaks and budget engines. Get the miniturization right and you end up with a 90+% cloaker much closer to the effective price/mine of an uncloaked frigate.
Another example, you need a super fast combat speed ship for a special job. If you do it budget, a bunch of man-jets and perhaps cheaper engines might take the place of overthrusters and expensive engines.
The idea with going cheap is only in those areas where cheap is actually much cheaper and lowers the overall ship costs significantly.
On the other hand, don't skimp on a deluxe ship to give it a weak link for little % overall savings. If you go deluxe, go deluxe all the way, for example give your 97% cloaker the best engines you can.
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Re: Meta-morph |
Sat, 31 January 2004 07:02 |
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Kotk | | Commander | Messages: 1227
Registered: May 2003 | |
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Sotek wrote on Sat, 31 January 2004 03:18 | There are (rare. Very rare) times when you want to use cheaper components.
| Generally true but using cheaper component than max available is quite usual with shields.
Freighter ... use energy 6 shield. Maybe energy 7 if you are IS or SS, maybe that MT shield if you have, but the rest are waste.
B-52 ... use energy 14 shields, the rest are waste.
With frigates, DD-s, rogues and galleons almost anything you put on them should be overconsidered if cheaper part does not do the trick.
SFX... if you got fuel mizer then better go warp 10 with it instead of using IS-10. IS-10 makes your SFX about 4 times more expensive.
With nubians ... people use jets no thrusters, often cheaper comps than nexi. Have seen cheaper engines used on nubs instead of IS-10 but thats not too common. May be more effective to use EHF instead of CPS on some nub designs ... for example light missile nubian has lots of slots but i am not too sure about it.
Quote: | I can't see ever using 35% cloaks, however.
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Correct about Morph. Morph has enough slots to get it cloaked with 55% cloaks. 35% cloaks are bad idea.
However 35% cloaks arent completely useless.
When you fight SD late game, you want to have cloaked sweepers/skirmishers to have any hope in skirmish war. If you are no SS you will use nubian for that. It is hard to build more cost efficient design than 1 slot for shields, 1 slot for jets, 1 slot for beams, 1 slot for scanners and 8 slots for 35% cloaks.
Another usage for 35% cloaks is to cloak your orbitals early with them. Can sometimes ambush careless opponent who thinks you have no orbital or gate there. But ... yes ... i cannot think of any other use for 35% cloak.
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[Updated on: Sat, 31 January 2004 07:18] Report message to a moderator
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Re: Meta-morph |
Sat, 31 January 2004 07:31 |
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Sotek | | Chief Warrant Officer 2 | Messages: 167
Registered: November 2002 | |
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Ah yes, my bad.
Maneuvering jets are often very useful when you only need a small improvement.
Likewise, I will *often* use inferior engines than my max, especially on warships.
I have a battlespeed I want, and I design to get it, and will use the cheapest engine that can do it.
And, also for engines, weight's an issue.
Most other components, lower-quality is same mass.
And good for pointing out the shields, I hadn't even considered them.
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