Home » Stars! 2.6/7 » The Academy » OBRM/not OBRM (and immunities) (split off from Mineral Extraction Timetables)
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Re: OBRM/not OBRM (and immunities) (split off from Mineral Extraction Timetables) |
Wed, 31 December 2003 00:12 |
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Orca | | Chief Warrant Officer 1 | Messages: 148
Registered: June 2003 Location: Orbiting tower at the L5 ... | |
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There needs to be a way to limit text sizes to something reasonable...
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Re: OBRM/not OBRM (and immunities) (split off from Mineral Extraction Timetables) |
Wed, 31 December 2003 03:08 |
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alexdstewart | | Chief Warrant Officer 2 | Messages: 164
Registered: July 2003 Location: Brisbane, QLD. | |
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It seems that there is a bit of misunderstanding concerning the -f strategy . Why would I want to attack as early as 2420 with what?- basooka frigates Do I really look THIS stupid? If I did this, it would be like signing my own death sentance. Just because you can build a frigate horde without hurting your econ doesn't mean that you are READY of war. Those frigate hordes will become obsolete when they arrive at the enemy.
No... I would use a different tactic. -f can't compete economicaly with factory races, BUT they have tactical advantages. These must be used to the full effect if an -f race hopes to survive for any prolonged period of time. All factory races have one fatal flaw- they HAVE factories AND they have expensive tech to pay for them. They rely on economy to reseach- and it takes time and resources to build an economy. Here in lies the weakness. Take a typical factory race world- fairly low value (lack of immunity?) and low defences, germanium shortage and probably no significant orbital defences, let alone planetary defences. What does it take to level such a world- 5-10 stealth bombers LBU depending on industrialization level. The recovery time?
3-4 turns to let the mining up to significant level, 7 turns (at least) to build the factories back up. 1-2 turns to set up a space station + more time to arm it AND then you can buld your fleet up again- if you have the minerals that is, oh you also need to build the defences to prevent this from happening again. That's like 10+ turns after initial bombardment that the colony is complitely indefensible. Most likely that LBU raid will happen again before the defences are up. What's the recovery time for a simular LBU raid on -f? 3-4 turns to get the mines started- IF you rely on planetary mines.
The goal of -f to stay competitive is therefore NOT to kill the opposition but to cripple it with LBU so they have to compete with you on equal terms- without factories. You don't need a superior force to achieve this- you need a LOCAL superior force.
An -f race cannot compete with factory races in a arms race, and therefore it needs to reach other force multiplier gadgets that are force MULTILIERS that factory races cannot get early because of tech settings.
To simply put my strategy with -f races would not be to kill the earlies because I can go to war the earliest. It would be different.
Stage one: exploration/colonization/breakpoint reseach
Stage two: a) instead of "frigate hordes" I build defensive hordes- minelayers- well armed space docks etc.
b)I will offer what I have the most of- superior tech in propulsion, energy, electronics, construction or whatever in exchange for TERRITORY- it is much better to ASK for more territory than to TAKE it.
Stage three: economic maximazation- I fill in my worlds and get instant 2.5 increase in econ that I use to boost my reseach to my target levels that are needed to have a superior fighting force. The exact targets vary but the goal is to build a fleet that is capable of destroying anything that factory races can reseach in any foreseeable future.
Stage Four: Fleet/defence building- to build a strong defence and then adequate offence with ALOT of LBU bombers.
Stage Four: Debilitation Wars- use the attack fleet to debilitate chosen enemies- DEBILITATE not kill. While defence fleets stall ineventable retaliation from the number supperior enemy- the goal is to waste their attack fleet fighting against cheaper defence- starbases, missile platforms, mines etc... At this stage lots of remote miners should be build to have an adequate supply of minerals for indeffinite shipbuilding.
Stage Five: Hit and Run Guerilla war- using the offensive fleet most of the galaxy must be involved in a massive war where factories are destroyed as soon as they are build (or nearly), use the allies from tech trade to help you.
Factory races CANNOT compete in THIS kind of war with -f races and hence they eventually all perish. Note that diplomacy is essantial- not the usual "a
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In the Future there is only WAR...
Therefore our extinction is assured, it is just a matter of where and when.Report message to a moderator
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Re: OBRM/not OBRM (and immunities) (split off from Mineral Extraction Timetables) |
Wed, 31 December 2003 17:37 |
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Nevski | | Petty Officer 3rd Class | Messages: 49
Registered: November 2003 Location: UK | |
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alexdstewart wrote on Wed, 31 December 2003 08:08 | Just because you can build a frigate horde without hurting your econ doesn't mean that you are READY of war. Those frigate hordes will become obsolete when they arrive at the enemy.
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Generally true, although it can work using the element of suprise against say a 1WW race inconjunction with bombers.
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All factory races have one fatal flaw- they HAVE factories AND they have expensive tech to pay for them.
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Not true. A lot of quick start factory races have narrow hab and 3.5 cheap techs. 1WW races are a common example of this but there are plenty of others.
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The goal of -f to stay competitive is therefore NOT to kill the opposition but to cripple it with LBU so they have to compete with you on equal terms- without factories. You don't need a superior force to achieve this- you need a LOCAL superior force.
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Not true
Time is often against -f races, and they need to constantly expand or die. That means killing their immediate neighbours, then killing the next nearest and so on, because they need so much space and real estate to generate any meaningful resources.
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b)I will offer what I have the most of- superior tech in propulsion, energy, electronics, construction or whatever in exchange for TERRITORY- it is much better to ASK for more territory than to TAKE it.
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Very few decent players would seriously consider giving you planets in exchange for tech. Planets are the most valuable long term resource in the game, while tech is a very transient benfit which soon becomes available to all. So I doubt you would ever have a big enough tech advantage to get any takers on that kind of deal. Thats why you need to kill your neighbours
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Stage three: economic maximazation- I fill in my worlds and get instant 2.5 increase in econ that I use to boost my reseach to my target levels that are needed to have a superior fighting force. The exact targets vary but the goal is to build a fleet that is capable of destroying anything that factory races can reseach in any foreseeable future.
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Filling in isn't the instant increase you suggest by any means. It takes time, and it's also a dangerous tactic which ultimate cripples your empire wide growth rate. Still viable if you are sure you can kill your remaining enemies soon after, but if you don't then this tactic probably sealed your own fate.
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Stage Four: Fleet/defence building- to build a strong defence and then adequate offence with ALOT of LBU bombers.
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You seem a bit too focused on defence, which will get you killed eventually with a -f. -f have wide hab, high growth and no factories, so they really don't need to spend anything on defence beyond the bare minimum necessary to function effectively and build war fleets to kill their neighbours. You need to maximise attack at all costs so defensive spending is just going to slow your expansion capability.
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Stage Four: Debilitation Wars- use the attack fleet to debilitate chosen enemies- DEBILITATE not kill. While defence fleets stall ineventable retaliation from the number supperior enemy- the goal is to waste their attack fleet fighting against cheaper defence- starbases, missile platforms, mines etc... At this stage lots of remote miners should be build to have an adequate supply of minerals for indeffinite shipbuilding.
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-f races are the last which should ever need to build remotes. You should be OBRM anyway. Your resources per world are so low that there isn't a mid game mineral crunch for -f races - they just keep on building at a steady slow rate. By the time you get to the stage where minerals are an issue for a -f, the game will probably be over.
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Factory races CANNOT compete in THIS kind of war with -f races and hence they eventually all perish. Note that diplomacy is essantial- not the usual "attack 'em all because I can" approach advocated.
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I'm not sure what level you play at but in most games I have played these tactics would send your -f to an early grave. Diplomacy
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Re: OBRM/not OBRM (and immunities) (split off from Mineral Extraction Timetables) |
Wed, 31 December 2003 22:10 |
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"Certainly no NF should have remote miners"
A NF with a few cheap local mines plus some remote miners has some potential. You don't need as many local mines for early germ. You have neither factories nor mines to lose on many outer worlds. And you have something extra to trade that no one else has.
Not having to worry about building either mines of factories on outer worlds allows them to focus strictly on starbases and shipbuilding. The IT PRT can do this best.
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Re: OBRM/not OBRM (and immunities) (split off from Mineral Extraction Timetables) |
Thu, 01 January 2004 16:05 |
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Orca | | Chief Warrant Officer 1 | Messages: 148
Registered: June 2003 Location: Orbiting tower at the L5 ... | |
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multilis wrote on Wed, 31 December 2003 22:10 | "Certainly no NF should have remote miners"
A NF with a few cheap local mines plus some remote miners has some potential. You don't need as many local mines for early germ. You have neither factories nor mines to lose on many outer worlds. And you have something extra to trade that no one else has.
Not having to worry about building either mines of factories on outer worlds allows them to focus strictly on starbases and shipbuilding. The IT PRT can do this best.
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You're forgetting something - it's only the highest tech remotes that are superior to cost 3 planetaries, and they still require a mineral investment. By that time your average NF is either dead or swimming in minerals (due to wide hab). Wide hab also nicely precludes maximum remote mining effectiveness because everywhere you can remote mine, you've inhabited. And you need wide hab for an NF to really work.
Remote mining and no-factories is a non-starter.
Jesus saves.
Allah forgives.
Cthulhu thinks you'd make a nice sandwich.Report message to a moderator
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Re: OBRM/not OBRM (and immunities) (split off from Mineral Extraction Timetables) |
Thu, 01 January 2004 17:16 |
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Kotk | | Commander | Messages: 1227
Registered: May 2003 | |
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Quote: | Say I have a better Idea:
Design the best OBRM race you can with GenReseach (?), give it to me so I can alter it to be a non OBRM race- the alterations will be minimal so all things equal it will be OBRM vs. NONOBRM. Set the production que and reseach to tech and generate until I get con12. Start the game.
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Okay ... if you will be more happy that way.
Small sparse distant, Acc BBS, no random events(to avoid meteores to ruin someones jump).
OBRM by Kotk against RM by alexdstewart.
Turn 0 played to set all the queues (no ships allowed in queues) and scrap all the mobile stuff.
Generated until RM race gets construction 12, then played.
Quote: | I just hope he chooses some defensive race like IS or SD so that I can protect my RM's...
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You truely want to play RM SD? Since i threw the gauntlet your right to choose weapon. My Race is here:
SD
GR, OBRM, LSP, RS
1 in 4, gravity centered, temperature centered, radiation right shifted, 18% growth
1000 12/9/16 less germ (x) 10/3/18
wepons cheap, energy & construction normal rest expensive.
Any third party so kind to check the races and setup the game?
[Updated on: Fri, 02 January 2004 07:19] Report message to a moderator
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Re: OBRM/not OBRM (and immunities) (split off from Mineral Extraction Timetables) |
Thu, 01 January 2004 22:02 |
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I am involved in a game, am currently doing quite well, when it is over we can test (I only play one game at a time to not overload myself). I prefer to suprise you with my race setup and you can do the same. It will take me a few days to tune the setup to the proposed game settings.
For remote miners, you have to count that they mine only the best worlds of what you really need rather than average, and there are growth advantages to having the outer worlds focus less energy on mines, etc. You also have to count the diplomatic advantages of having something few others have.
I have my own method of testing a design and tuning, more complex than your usual testbed, and so far in my game the real numbers are dead on the predicted despite my fighting a full scale war since 2430 against one of the strongest players (a +f game rather than -f).
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Re: OBRM/not OBRM (and immunities) (split off from Mineral Extraction Timetables) |
Fri, 02 January 2004 01:05 |
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alexdstewart | | Chief Warrant Officer 2 | Messages: 164
Registered: July 2003 Location: Brisbane, QLD. | |
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Kotk wrote on Thu, 01 January 2004 17:16 | My Race is here:
SD
GR, OBRM, LSP, RS
1 in 4, no immunities, 18% growth
1000 12/9/16 less germ (x) 10/3/18
wepons cheap, energy & construction normal rest expensive.
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Amm, Can we also take ISB? Be honest, ISB is a common trait and gives considerable defence advantages. Can we also have same hab or very simular so that we are on more equal footing? If you are concerned about having the same hab, we can still negotiate hab shift. I'll give you the Exact final race design so that we know each other weaknesses and and strenghts.
I will only drop OBRM, RS (I HATE RS) and pay for it by mine settings and hab if I only need a few more pts.
Also, can we have dense small/normal small? Having only 24 planets is a bit- lame... too easy to find the RM fleets.
What do yea say to that?
[Updated on: Fri, 02 January 2004 01:12]
In the Future there is only WAR...
Therefore our extinction is assured, it is just a matter of where and when.Report message to a moderator
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Re: OBRM/not OBRM (and immunities) (split off from Mineral Extraction Timetables) |
Fri, 02 January 2004 03:45 |
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Micha | | | Messages: 2342
Registered: November 2002 Location: Belgium GMT +1 | |
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alexdstewart wrote on Fri, 02 January 2004 07:05 | Amm, Can we also take ISB? Be honest, ISB is a common trait and gives considerable defence advantages.
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I don't find ISB that common, I only use it with AR or when I have a race that needs to expand fast. That means the most important is the space dock for fuel and to build light ships. Not for the ultra station and for the more weap you can put on that, starbases become sitting ducks when you bring a few scouts with a laser.
Quote: | Can we also have same hab or very simular so that we are on more equal footing? If you are concerned about having the same hab, we can still negotiate hab shift. I'll give you the Exact final race design so that we know each other weaknesses and and strenghts.
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In a duel you should take the same habs! What are you going to do? Peacefully intersettle?
Quote: | I will only drop OBRM, RS (I HATE RS) and pay for it by mine settings and hab if I only need a few more pts.
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You HATE RS??? Heretic! It's one of the most beautiful LRTs and it even gives you a few RW points, and with too many LRT's it only costs you very little. When are you putting armor on your ships? FF? No, since that means no slot for shields. DD? No, gets too heavy. CC? No, same reason as FF. BB? No, since that makes them less gate-able. Nubs with armor?
Ok, there are a few times that I will use armor (missile BBs sometimes and of course the DD sweepers). Anyway, let's not discuss RS here, it has been discussed a million of times already. Like or not like ...
mch
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Re: OBRM/not OBRM (and immunities) (split off from Mineral Extraction Timetables) |
Fri, 02 January 2004 07:13 |
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Micha | | | Messages: 2342
Registered: November 2002 Location: Belgium GMT +1 | |
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overworked wrote on Fri, 02 January 2004 12:52 |
Micha wrote on Fri, 02 January 2004 03:45 | I don't find ISB that common, I only use it with AR or when I have a race that needs to expand fast. That means the most important is the space dock for fuel and to build light ships. Not for the ultra station and for the more weap you can put on that, starbases become sitting ducks when you bring a few scouts with a laser.
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ISB is fairly common with -f designs however. Since they often don't have a large resource base putting up a cheap dock is often useful for getting the race expanding and able to build early ships. A station costing 500+ res would take a -f colony multiple years to build, whereas a dock will go up quickly and be of immediate use.
- Kurt
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True, but the race in question is a HG with good factories, it can easily live without ISB ...
Hm, no IFE, so not that easily without ISB fuel-wise however it's an SD so he can some good fuel boosters at his disposal from the start ...
mch
[Edit: fixed quote]
[Updated on: Fri, 02 January 2004 07:16] Report message to a moderator
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