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Re: SS ultimate strategy?

Mon, 20 April 2009 13:34

vonKreedon

Lieutenant

Messages: 610
Registered: March 2003
Location: Seattle, WA USA

Altruist wrote on Mon, 20 April 2009 02:57

Do you say that there are game rules and those should be followed? But rules which you have agreed to bilateral or multilateral within the game can be handled differently and thus broken for a backstab?

Yes, I don't think that this is "weird logic". If the game rules say that CA must have 100 points to Surface Minerals and that all treaties are binding then someone who designs a CA race without leaving 100 points to Surface Minerals or someone who breaks a treaty are then breaking the rules. And, if the game rules say that each player must randomly break a treaty every ten years and a player doesn't break his one alliance because to do so would be suicide, he is also breaking the rules. OTOH, if the game rules say nothing about honoring treaties then either keeping or breaking treaties has nothing to do with breaking the rules.

Altruist further wrote on Mon, 20 April 2009 02:57

What a scum! What about the thought that within the rules you have agreed to you have lost, the other won? If you had been smart enough, you'd made another treaty or properly cancelled it early enough...
If you don't follow a treaty we have agreed upon because "to win obligates you to perform a backstab", what should made me think and trust that you follow other rules, that you don't try to use every known bug and cheat... when winning is, it seems, so overly important for you?

Treaties are agreements meant to advance one's strategic interests, not rules meant to govern how the game is played. I'm not scum and I adhere to the rules of the game and where I'm not clear about the interpretation of a rule I ask the host and follow the host's ruling.

Now you all might get the impression that I'm a backstab happy Machievellian win-at-all-cost player, but that's not really true. In my many many Stars games over the last nearly a decade and a half of playing I've only backstabbed once, and that was about 12 years ago. I agree with Altruist's sentiment that if one is smart enough about writing the treaties, and also vigilant enough to pick up strategic shifts early, one can almost always avoid having to backstab and still play to win. But....

If we take backstabbing out of the equation, if one can proceed with perfect assurance that your allies will all adhere slavishly to the letter and spirit of your treaties then IMO an important part of gameplay is removed...paranioc analysis of emerging shifts in strategic balance. Players can be lazy in communicating with each other and analyzing the strategic situation and concentrate on the math portions of the game because they know that all of the other races will let them know in a timely fashion that the strategic balance has shifted and there is no need to be proactive in this analysis.

Then there's the question of what does the game of Stars represent. I think that we can agree that it is a simulation of interstellar exploration, exploitation, and of course conquest. Being humans the only parameters that we have for these activities are human-vs-human, but we do have a lot of history to draw upon and very little of it shows the kind of rigid honor system that is being argued for here. Indeed history shows that treaties are honored as long as they are seen as being more useful then not and discarded as soon as they begin to hinder a nation's strategic goals. Our history is filled with examples of backstabs and I don't understand why my esteemed colleagues want to argue that we should play an interspecies simulation differently.

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[Message index]

		SS ultimate strategy? By: freakyboy on Fri, 13 December 2002 15:37
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: Coyote on Fri, 13 December 2002 17:27
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: BlueTurbit on Fri, 13 December 2002 17:56
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: freakyboy on Fri, 13 December 2002 18:12
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: gible on Fri, 13 December 2002 19:21
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: freakyboy on Fri, 13 December 2002 19:30
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: EDog on Fri, 13 December 2002 23:44
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: UAF commander on Fri, 13 December 2002 19:59
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: BlueTurbit on Fri, 13 December 2002 20:36
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: condie on Mon, 16 December 2002 11:51
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: zoid on Fri, 13 December 2002 21:06
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: Apelord on Fri, 13 December 2002 22:58
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: tech25 on Fri, 13 December 2002 23:34
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: EDog on Fri, 13 December 2002 23:56
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: zoid on Sat, 14 December 2002 01:46
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: Apelord on Sat, 14 December 2002 12:13
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: zoid on Sat, 14 December 2002 01:59
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: UAF commander on Sat, 14 December 2002 06:12
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: freakyboy on Sat, 14 December 2002 07:59
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: Apelord on Sat, 14 December 2002 12:19
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: BlueTurbit on Sat, 14 December 2002 12:40
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: EDog on Sat, 14 December 2002 19:48
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: Apelord on Sun, 15 December 2002 12:19
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: Apelord on Tue, 17 December 2002 00:57
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: Stalwart on Fri, 20 December 2002 15:51
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: zoid on Sat, 14 December 2002 14:22
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: freakyboy on Sat, 14 December 2002 14:39
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: UAF commander on Sat, 14 December 2002 13:44
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: zoid on Sat, 14 December 2002 16:55
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: freakyboy on Sat, 14 December 2002 14:16
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: joseph on Mon, 28 July 2003 03:20
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: vonKreedon on Mon, 28 July 2003 18:40
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: Paladin on Fri, 15 August 2003 16:34
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: Hatterson on Sat, 16 August 2003 12:31
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: Steve1 on Tue, 11 November 2003 03:05
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: Sinla on Tue, 11 November 2003 10:17
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: EDog on Tue, 11 November 2003 11:31
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: Steve1 on Fri, 14 November 2003 05:18
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: Sinla on Fri, 14 November 2003 05:51
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: freakyboy on Fri, 14 November 2003 06:47
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: iztok on Fri, 14 November 2003 08:37
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: Ashlyn on Fri, 14 November 2003 12:25
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: The Taubat on Fri, 14 November 2003 13:41
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: knightpraetor on Mon, 16 October 2006 18:22
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: knightpraetor on Tue, 17 October 2006 11:32
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: gible on Tue, 17 October 2006 22:59
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: Kotk on Tue, 17 October 2006 23:30
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: gible on Wed, 18 October 2006 03:29
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: Kotk on Wed, 18 October 2006 08:19
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: Dogthinkers on Wed, 18 October 2006 10:41
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: vonKreedon on Wed, 18 October 2006 11:31
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: boomerlu on Fri, 03 April 2009 18:44
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: slimdrag00n on Fri, 03 April 2009 23:17
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: magic9mushroom on Sat, 04 April 2009 02:55
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: slimdrag00n on Sat, 04 April 2009 17:59
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: DaYng1 on Thu, 16 April 2009 10:35
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: Eagle of Fire on Thu, 16 April 2009 13:12
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: DaYng1 on Thu, 16 April 2009 13:54
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: vonKreedon on Thu, 16 April 2009 17:29
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: Hypokris on Thu, 16 April 2009 15:04
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: Eagle of Fire on Thu, 16 April 2009 19:03
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: magic9mushroom on Fri, 17 April 2009 00:00
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: Altruist on Sat, 18 April 2009 06:56
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: vonKreedon on Sat, 18 April 2009 14:05
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: Altruist on Sat, 18 April 2009 16:38
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: vonKreedon on Sat, 18 April 2009 18:36
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: magic9mushroom on Sun, 19 April 2009 01:04
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: magic9mushroom on Sun, 19 April 2009 01:00
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: vonKreedon on Sun, 19 April 2009 18:33
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: Altruist on Mon, 20 April 2009 05:57
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: magic9mushroom on Mon, 20 April 2009 06:35
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: vonKreedon on Mon, 20 April 2009 13:34
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: DaYng1 on Mon, 20 April 2009 13:58
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: vonKreedon on Mon, 20 April 2009 14:06
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: DaYng1 on Mon, 20 April 2009 14:49
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: vonKreedon on Mon, 20 April 2009 15:01
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: DaYng1 on Mon, 20 April 2009 15:13
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: PaulCr on Mon, 20 April 2009 16:01
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: vonKreedon on Tue, 21 April 2009 11:52
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: magic9mushroom on Tue, 21 April 2009 23:35
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: Altruist on Mon, 20 April 2009 14:04
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: Micha on Wed, 22 April 2009 11:03
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: slimdrag00n on Thu, 16 April 2009 20:16
		Impications of backstabbing By: neilhoward on Fri, 17 April 2009 11:54
		Re: Impications of backstabbing By: Micha on Wed, 22 April 2009 05:54
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: Eagle of Fire on Sat, 18 April 2009 13:48
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: magic9mushroom on Sun, 19 April 2009 00:50
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: Eagle of Fire on Sat, 18 April 2009 21:05
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: AlexTheGreat on Sat, 18 April 2009 23:14
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: Eagle of Fire on Wed, 22 April 2009 11:13
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: magic9mushroom on Wed, 22 April 2009 13:22
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: vonKreedon on Wed, 22 April 2009 14:20
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: PaulCr on Wed, 22 April 2009 16:44
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: vonKreedon on Wed, 22 April 2009 17:31
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: PaulCr on Wed, 22 April 2009 17:51
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: Eagle of Fire on Wed, 22 April 2009 18:37
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: slimdrag00n on Wed, 22 April 2009 19:04
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: magic9mushroom on Thu, 23 April 2009 02:29
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: magic9mushroom on Thu, 23 April 2009 02:26
		Re: SS ultimate strategy? By: Altruist on Thu, 23 April 2009 07:02

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