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Re: Defeating the factoryless race

Fri, 06 February 2009 09:10

magic9mushroom

Commander

Messages: 1364
Registered: May 2008

m.a@stars wrote on Sat, 07 February 2009 00:14

magic9mushroom wrote on Fri, 06 February 2009 13:48

Bullplop, in most universes.

Care to put your race designs where your mouth is? 2 Guns

Hey, look, I know I suck, but that doesn't make the theory wrong. Smile

Quote:

3i HE will be well ahead in tech and will also not be far behind in pop. Their res/col > that of an HP, and their hab is just the icing on the cake.

My mistake, I actually meant HP/HG hybrids, as in my earlier posts. HE has no edge on those, race-wise, never. Full stop.

...

Are you quite sure of that?

Let's stick together some sort of 6% 3i HE. You'll be able to get 10+% achieved growth easily, that's in the ballpark of most HG JoaTs. And capacity should be better given the 100% hab with 100% value on all planets. So what matters is economy. I won't take NAS just to be nice.

HE
ISB, NRSE, OBRM, RS
3i 6%
1/1000 13/8/20/3g 11/3/20
Weap, con cheap

Full planet size is 1980, compared to the average HG JoaT's 3854, but tri-imm means that you've got twice as many planets, at least, with twice as good hab on average, to make it up twice over. And this isn't even mentioning the huge mineral stockpiles a race like this will build up.

Overall conclusion: slightly behind a HG JoaT in pop growth early, makes it up later in capacity.

I'm not entirely sure what sort of settings a hybrid takes, I don't really know how to build one. But I'll point out that a 5% HE gets better factories and hence capacity with around the same achieved pop growth.

Quote:

AR might be killed early, but if it isn't it'll become close to unkillable late without shockingly superior force - which you can't have because he has minerals on you.

Shockingly superior, that's what a good JoaT gets. And no amount of minerals will save the AR from "Kill Starbase" battleorders. "close to unkillable" indeed, is still "killable".

Problem with AR is that with their mineral fountain, and Death Stars growing pop, you really can't kill them permanently unless you can occupy almost all of their space simultaneously, because it takes an AR literally 3-4 years to rebuild a base from scratch, no more, as against the 9 for an HG JoaT with unlimited Germ (not likely) or the 14 for an HP JoaT with unlimited Germ (even less likely). Sure you can kill the bases, but you'll find that they pop back up rather fast.

Quote:

IS overpop is better in a lot of cases than JoaT +20%. An IS -f can come close to equaling a JoaT +f in res/space. IS also get all their neat toys.

Particularly their expensive-to-build weapons. "close" is no guarantee for the IS.

Agreed. I'm just thinking the orgy angle and possibly -f angle though. A JoaT can't really do that and make it work in a large/huge uni.

Also all the cute defensive bonuses don't hurt.

Quote:

IT are considered well OP in large/huge games because of their ubergates. With enough room to grow, an IT will take a lot more space than a JoaT because it can gate stuff out, solving the fuel problem. That'll make up for the JoaT's better planet size.

With enough room to grow, the JoaT has no rival except the CA. Full stop.

Not so sure about that, but you may be right. This is admittedly shaky ground since I don't play IT.

Quote:

And that's without considering the impact of those gates on warfare.

Ahh, yeah, the legendary IT gates. Neat, but not nearly as decisive as many people think.

Again, my lack of game experience means I can't really say anything on this one.

Quote:

Most good races built on these principles wouldn't be able to take a TT CA one-on-one, but are in the same league, and are just plain different. JoaT is inferior to CA full stop.

You lost me here. The JoaT *can* take on the TT-CA one-on-one. Why is it then excluded from the list? Shocked

Can it? I doubt it. The JoaT's main strength is econ growth and capacity using its +20% planet size. Growth wise CA > JoaT, no contest. To keep up with a CA in terms of capacity they have to do years of terraforming ...

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		Defeating the factoryless race By: johng316 on Thu, 29 January 2009 17:17
		Re: Defeating the factoryless race By: johng316 on Thu, 29 January 2009 17:26
		Re: Defeating the factoryless race By: magic9mushroom on Thu, 29 January 2009 20:47
		Re: Defeating the factoryless race By: johng316 on Thu, 29 January 2009 23:25
		Re: Defeating the factoryless race By: magic9mushroom on Fri, 30 January 2009 00:54
		Re: Defeating the factoryless race By: joseph on Fri, 30 January 2009 05:04
		Re: Defeating the factoryless race By: Sully on Sat, 31 January 2009 16:08
		Re: Defeating the factoryless race By: iztok on Sat, 31 January 2009 20:18
		Re: Defeating the factoryless race By: johng316 on Sun, 01 February 2009 01:33
		Re: Defeating the factoryless race By: Alter Ego on Sun, 01 February 2009 04:52
		Re: Defeating the factoryless race By: iztok on Sun, 01 February 2009 11:44
		Re: Defeating the factoryless race By: m.a@stars on Tue, 03 February 2009 13:39
		Re: Defeating the factoryless race By: mlaub on Tue, 03 February 2009 14:09
		Re: Defeating the factoryless race By: m.a@stars on Tue, 03 February 2009 17:20
		Re: Defeating the factoryless race By: magic9mushroom on Tue, 03 February 2009 21:34
		Re: Defeating the factoryless race By: mlaub on Wed, 04 February 2009 15:13
		Re: Defeating the factoryless race By: m.a@stars on Thu, 05 February 2009 05:05
		Re: Defeating the factoryless race By: magic9mushroom on Thu, 05 February 2009 07:06
		Re: Defeating the factoryless race By: mlaub on Thu, 05 February 2009 10:20
		Re: Defeating the factoryless race By: m.a@stars on Fri, 06 February 2009 05:43
		Re: Defeating the factoryless race By: Alter Ego on Fri, 06 February 2009 05:54
		Re: Defeating the factoryless race By: magic9mushroom on Fri, 06 February 2009 06:07
		Re: Defeating the factoryless race By: m.a@stars on Fri, 06 February 2009 07:17
		Re: Defeating the factoryless race By: magic9mushroom on Fri, 06 February 2009 07:22
		Re: Defeating the factoryless race By: m.a@stars on Fri, 06 February 2009 07:29
		Re: Defeating the factoryless race By: magic9mushroom on Fri, 06 February 2009 07:48
		Re: Defeating the factoryless race By: m.a@stars on Fri, 06 February 2009 08:14
		Re: Defeating the factoryless race By: magic9mushroom on Fri, 06 February 2009 09:10
		Re: Defeating the factoryless race By: mlaub on Fri, 06 February 2009 13:01
		Re: Defeating the factoryless race By: joseph on Fri, 06 February 2009 18:16
		Re: Defeating the factoryless race By: m.a@stars on Sat, 07 February 2009 04:28
		Re: Defeating the factoryless race By: magic9mushroom on Fri, 06 February 2009 18:43
		Re: Defeating the factoryless race By: m.a@stars on Sat, 07 February 2009 05:49
		Re: Defeating the factoryless race By: magic9mushroom on Sat, 07 February 2009 10:53
		Re: Defeating the factoryless race By: m.a@stars on Sat, 07 February 2009 13:50
		Re: Defeating the factoryless race By: vonKreedon on Sat, 07 February 2009 14:11
		Re: Defeating the factoryless race By: Altruist on Sun, 08 February 2009 16:28
		Re: Defeating the factoryless race By: johng316 on Sun, 08 February 2009 23:05
		Re: Defeating the factoryless race By: m.a@stars on Sat, 07 February 2009 14:22
		Re: Defeating the factoryless race By: mlaub on Sat, 07 February 2009 15:19
		Re: Defeating the factoryless race By: Alter Ego on Tue, 10 February 2009 15:06
		Re: Defeating the factoryless race By: m.a@stars on Tue, 10 February 2009 18:13
		Re: Defeating the factoryless race By: Alter Ego on Wed, 11 February 2009 15:20
		Re: Defeating the factoryless race By: swp1 on Tue, 10 February 2009 20:18
		Re: Defeating the factoryless race By: iztok on Wed, 11 February 2009 02:56
		Re: Defeating the factoryless race By: m.a@stars on Wed, 11 February 2009 05:05
		Re: Defeating the factoryless race By: johng316 on Wed, 11 February 2009 09:24
		Re: Defeating the factoryless race By: m.a@stars on Wed, 11 February 2009 12:32
		Re: Defeating the factoryless race By: Alter Ego on Wed, 11 February 2009 15:28
		Re: Defeating the factoryless race By: Alter Ego on Wed, 11 February 2009 15:40
		Re: Defeating the factoryless race By: m.a@stars on Wed, 11 February 2009 19:43
		Re: Defeating the factoryless race By: iztok on Thu, 12 February 2009 03:12
		Re: Defeating the factoryless race By: m.a@stars on Thu, 12 February 2009 04:05
		Re: Defeating the factoryless race By: iztok on Thu, 12 February 2009 05:29
		Re: Defeating the factoryless race By: Micha on Thu, 12 February 2009 07:53
		Re: Defeating the factoryless race By: m.a@stars on Thu, 12 February 2009 08:13
		Re: Defeating the factoryless race By: neilhoward on Thu, 02 April 2009 03:13
		Re: Defeating the factoryless race By: gible on Thu, 02 April 2009 05:04
		Re: Defeating the factoryless race By: Alter Ego on Sat, 14 February 2009 13:35
		Re: Defeating the factoryless race By: Alter Ego on Sat, 14 February 2009 13:32
		Re: Defeating the factoryless race By: magic9mushroom on Sun, 01 February 2009 05:02
		Re: Defeating the factoryless race By: ArtL on Tue, 03 February 2009 23:31
		Re: Defeating the factoryless race By: Combat on Sat, 07 February 2009 11:25
		Re: Defeating the factoryless race By: neilhoward on Mon, 09 February 2009 03:10
		Re: Defeating the factoryless race By: vonKreedon on Mon, 09 February 2009 15:13
		Re: Defeating the factoryless race By: neilhoward on Tue, 10 February 2009 18:45
		Re: Defeating the factoryless race By: Altruist on Tue, 24 March 2009 15:14
		Re: Defeating the factoryless race By: DaYng1 on Thu, 26 March 2009 15:12
		Re: Defeating the factoryless race By: magic9mushroom on Fri, 27 March 2009 11:42
		Re: Defeating the factoryless race By: DaYng1 on Fri, 27 March 2009 14:40
		Re: Defeating the factoryless race By: m.a@stars on Sat, 28 March 2009 06:30
		Re: Defeating the factoryless race By: magic9mushroom on Sun, 29 March 2009 07:16
		Re: Defeating the factoryless race By: DaYng1 on Sat, 28 March 2009 17:16
		Re: Defeating the factoryless race By: pydna on Thu, 02 April 2009 01:41
		Re: Defeating the factoryless race By: Altruist on Thu, 02 April 2009 13:03
		Re: Defeating the factoryless race By: m.a@stars on Thu, 02 April 2009 14:29
		Re: Defeating the factoryless race By: Eagle of Fire on Thu, 02 April 2009 13:35
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