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Re: New Player needs help Sun, 04 January 2009 04:52 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
AlexTheGreat is currently offline AlexTheGreat

 
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Registered: May 2006
Location: Sydney, Australia
magic9mushroom wrote on Sun, 04 January 2009 01:41

AlexTheGreat wrote on Sun, 04 January 2009 11:24

Actually, TGD & TGFS provide exactly the same battle speed, as do the IS-10 v TGSS. In the latter case TGSS needs one extra level of Prop (Prop12) but you'll want that anyway for overthrusters. Further up the Prop tree the TGMS (Prop16) is the fastest engine of all until Prop23 when the TS-10 becomes available.


Not true. The TGFS is a warp 8 engine, the TGD and TGSS are warp 9, and the IS-10 is warp 10. Weight does offset some of that, but not enough to make them the same speed. Take cruisers. Pretty much all cruisers with a few maneuvering jets will hit 140 kT weight and lose 1/4 movement. But even with IS-10 engines they're highly unlikely to hit 280 kT and lose another 1/4. So the speed advantage of the normal engines remains. The exception is the TGMS, with which you can build a cruiser with just under 140 kT weight, and hence get faster than an IS-10 cruiser. Battleships can be similar or different, depending on whether you armour them. All BBs will hit 280 kT and lose the first 1/4 of movement - this is unavoidable. Most beam BBs will be under 560 kT even with IS-10 engines, but I guess if you put Neutronium on them the engine choice could make a difference, making ramscoops the same speed as normal engines (and more agile, as usual). Missile BBs will always break the 280 and 560 cutoffs, but whether they go over the 840 kT (for 12 or 16 missiles, and unarmored), or 1120 kT (for fully armed and armored turtleboats) could depend on engine, I guess. But mostly, the normal engines are faster, but less agile.


You're quite right Magic9. Memory was playing tricks - the Ramscoops that I claimed to have the same BS as the standard engines I compared them to are actually .25 slower.

Quote:

1. I didn't say that IT and HE are stronger than JoaT. I said that JoaT isn't much more economically powerful than IT or HE, and economy is basically all they have, so giving them a 150 point penalty would cripple them.

2. Correct. ITs can't compete planet for planet with a JoaT. However, ITs can grow their pop quickly due to 1-turn transit time. Hence an IT can get more planets than a JoaT, enough to offset the 20% planet size thing.

3. While the IT trait is expensive, this is offset by:
- Don't need IFE due to starting prop, can even take CE.
- Don't need ISB due to gating advantages.
- Can get away with ridiculously narrow hab because of gating reducing transit time.
- Can get away with OBRM more easily than most due to gating minerals
- Can get away with NAS easier than most due to gatescanning.

All in all, a JoaT has a very small point advantage over an IT.

4. 6% 3i HEs aren't slow. They can easily break 25k by 2450 even with good LRTs and 3.5 cheap tech.


1. Economy & their fast tech start is generally all they need but see below about a reduced JOAT penalty.

2. In most games either borders are agreed or the races fight over it. The former is most common & the border is generally about half way between the 2 HW2. If the latter then the JOAT & IT should be a close match with the better starting shields, better starting weapons & penscanning possibly making the difference but both races will most likely finish badly. There's no way my JOAT would cede space to my neighbouring IT.

3. NEVER CE but most of the rest you talk about is true. You can get away with them. That doesn't mean that you are not disadvantaged by doing so though - it just hurts less compared to most PRTs. BTW I pretty much always take OBRM except when I play AR.

4. A 6% 3i HE can get 25k in a testbed but I haven't seen one do it in a game - usually because they can't get the planets needed. An unhandicapped JOAT should get 40k+ by 2450 & one with no NAS about 5-10k less because of the lower available RW points. Then there's the question of "what then?" - the JOAT is still early on their hyperbolic resource curve & will probably break 100k by 2480. However, the 3i HE is more competitive than I origi ...

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