Home » Primary Racial Traits » AR » AR and IFE
| Re: AR designs - post your best here!! |
Tue, 13 September 2005 12:23  |
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| Kotk | 
 | Commander |
Messages: 1227
Registered: May 2003 | |
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| Dogthinkers wrote on Tue, 13 September 2005 03:32 |
I hope you aren't under the impression I am flaming you or something, I just enjoy working through this stuff. 
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Nope... with "emotional" i was under impression ... in the sense that its like rule of life there for you.  With IFE one can move and without IFE he cant or has to pay tons extra. No checks needed to be made with the reality and with actual costs involved in actual circumstances or testbeds.
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At 2415 you may only have 11% less, but at 2450 you will *still* have 11% less as those lost population has not been growing either, unless you usually manage to max out your population before then.
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IMHO this figure is closer to 100%.
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Like i said for AR extra 11% pop on one planet gives extra 5% resources on that planet so that whats IFE-s ultimately worth on the cases when it helps getting somehere 1 years quicker. In packed or dense IFE-less *is no way* 1 year slower to each planet. Easy to prove.
Also that "emotional" was about your talks about that huge pop-lifting prices that affect your iron supply, ability to colonize and ability to research. +100%  
FM-MF costs 53 res, FM-priv costs 73 res, FM-LF costs 130 resources.
QJ5-MF costs 45 res, QJ5-LF costs 114 resources, QJ5-SFX costs 73 resources.
So draw your budgets please. 
For me IFE AR builds ~12 pop-moving vessels 10 MFs and 2 privs. Say 676 resources. Enough for averagely 3 years there and 3 years back trips. Maybe 2-4 more are needed within 25 first years but then the prices start to miniaturize, minerals matter less and keeping in mind soon to come ultras LF-s are better option.
My experiense is that IFE-less uses about 770 res for smooth enough early pop lifting (number of planets where additional year of travel is needed is not 0 but minimal enough) so 14% more or ~100 res. When more LF-s are needed later then these can be built with rad rams already (one anyway wants gate tech if he got decent sized empire). Where you think he puts additional 100% or 676 resources early it really beats me. 
It is number of planets that matters lot more than amount of pop on single planet.  Having exactly same pop split 50/50 between 2 similar planets gives 41% extra resources. Its thats easy. So I prefer wide hab to IFE or 17%+ PGR. When growding is involved then deathstar breeders make amounts of pop nowhere to put and low pop planets catch up quite rapidly. I have never been in real game where growding is not a issue at 2450. Such games exist but are called "primitive" games.
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Certainly in tiny packed IFE is a bad choice. Your race is certainly great in a tiny packed testbed I don't think anybody is arguing about that. The big question is how to extend such performance into real games and other sizes / densities (and for the last couple of weeks - analysing the cost/benefits of IFE for AR.)
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After doing some testbeds (some unsuccessful, some successful, some very successful) it is easy to correlate that AR performance is tied to number of colonized green planets. 15-20 is weak, 25 planets is OK, 30 is strong and 40+ enjoys rather hard to beat perfomance. That is heavily tied with my playing style. Blood-out-of-nose  amount of pintaes, if i see nothing to colonize i move death-proof 22kT of pop with it to colony in direction where i have slightest hope to scout something to colonize. That actually makes some drawbacks in early testbed performance but in real game you have to act like this. # of colonies is life or death question.
So ... tiny dense is exactly on the OK edge if you manage to turn ~25 of these 40 planets into decent greens by 2450.  It is easy to prove that tiny territory is too little at normal or sparse density to achieve any acceptable performance with AR. 
Playing small territory alone lets you also find/make 30 greens on any density. Its ridiculous free-to-take 800x800 ly square. Sure IFE helps there greatly to take the distances (up to 500 ly). If you want to get into Quiness book with 2450 AR result, take Medium Packed alone, take IFE, take 20% growth rate and take OBRM. Nearly 100k by 2450 is possible.  However the situation is not comparable to situations in real games unless we talk about some pre-arranged team game or diplomacy geniuses or broken games by tons of drop-out weenies and noobs.
Bottom line is that in dense or packed environment IFE-less AR is ok, in lower densities even IFE does not help AR seriously enough. I congratulate anyone trying it (or playing PP or something else as geeky) for having that masochistic joy. I have won medium normal game with IFE-less AR so i know what i talk here about.
[Edit:] Sorry, one thing more... Ashlyn is often hosting medium packed games for ~6 newbies called Newbie Challenge X. So roughly 90 planets per player. Its brilliant example about conditions where IFE-less AR has ... way too conservative expectations and is too MM skill-dependant. IFE AR should easily find 40+ colonies there and so very likely beat the crap out of others with right hand in pocket.
[Updated on: Tue, 13 September 2005 14:52] Report message to a moderator
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