Home » Stars! 2.6/7 » The Academy » Remote Mining with Vengance.
Re: Remote Mining with Vengance. |
Mon, 01 September 2003 14:04 |
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Kotk | | Commander | Messages: 1227
Registered: May 2003 | |
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I'm mearly trying this -fm idea which is alot less than most of you. Play it, try it, THEN slate it if you have to.
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I honestly tried... stopped at 2435 or so. It just wastes all its iron and resources into remote miners freighters and terraforming, so it got no -f ability to start to fight from the second you see someone and seriously attack someone at 2425-2430.
Quote: | Stars! could do with a few new ideas and this is one. Don't be so quick to throw it to one side.
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Okay, right, but the -M idea is not so new. -FM is new for me true. Also the -T (all tech expensive) idea is not much talked about. I have played once one in PBM as replacement... took it at #9 place but when game ended i was #2 from 14.
Quote: | You're all comparing this to an AR race, I believe -FM was originally going to be a race that could compete with -F CA's. Ok so it's not... not even close, but it has some valid design points that are worth looking into a little more than most of you will.
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... it is just me and Sotek. Why i compare it with AR... it has most similar econ thinking to AR. "my pop just does nothing but spreads and terraforms". We have to compare it with something that is similarily weak early but lot more powerful later.
Quote: | Sure it's not as good at mining as JOAT or AR, but it's still better than most races. The weakest point of this race is resources... I'm shocked that you're not picking that apart left right and centre - instead your concentrating on minerals!!!
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I tried to mention economy density and concentration here or there... sorry if you did not see it.
Quote: | -f works for most PRT's
HP works for all prt's bar maybe AR and HE
HG works for ALL prt's
Hybrids work for all prt's.
-fm works for IT and thats about it really.
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Its bit too extreme to be called *valid* and *works*. Worth testing ... yes but tests now show nothing good so far. I call it valid to drop OBRM with IT in large game and take weaker than average mines ... for example 10/3/13. Its valid. Still works. Frigate war would be bit hard with germ, BB era it catches up. Can remote, can live with weaker planetary mines. It is not so damn weak in all aspects like our -FM.
Quote: | And all starbases are weak - regardless of everything. Yeah armageddon BB's are expensive... but chaff isn't.
4x32 armaggedon missiles from a DS. Thats 128 chaff per volley from the DS... thats 512 resources of chaff per volley... a DS should drop after 1 maybe 2 volleys. It's a huge problem with stars... maybe starbase chaff might be a good idea? lots of little orbital forts or something
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Ohh okay sole orbital is weak against 40 Arma BB-s and 1000 chaff. What about counterdesigns? Gate in 6 high init mega disruptor bb-s that kill 1000 chaff with one blow, (max damage orders) maybe few with shield sappers too... just count how lot you need to kill the shields of BB-s? Do the BB-s have jammers? Otherwise they will be met with 4x32x1050=134400 dp of Arma damage the first round that means 24 valanium-armored BB-s will eat dirt with one shot while the expenses from AR side were few beamer bb-s and cheapo Deathstar only. Not so bloody funny anymore.
Anyones orbital is weak. So how lot of such fleets there are coming? Can our AR build at least one fleet that can kill one of theirs? At least help his deathstar to kill it... at least partially? If it is only one BIG fleet they have and our AR cannot kill it then that fleet sure cannot be at all places? Maybe our AR can retake where they left away?
If opponent has 3 or 4 fleets and our AR still can not destroy single one of them he must be toast anyway, back to think about strategies and designs. Stars has to be winnable, even against AR.
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Re: Remote Mining with Vengance. |
Wed, 26 November 2003 05:03 |
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Madman | | Officer Cadet 1st Year | Messages: 228
Registered: November 2003 Location: New Zealand | |
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freakyboy wrote on Fri, 29 August 2003 10:57 | Race:
IT
IFE, ARM, RS
0.53g to 1.96g
-92c to 92c
Rad immune
(1/4 hab)
20% gr
-FM econ settings
weap, cons cheap
prop, energy, elec normal
bio expensive.
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Well, I was keeping quiet about this because I wanted to try it in another game, but I don't think I'll be using it after all.
I started with a goal of trying to design a race for which UR or MA would actually be useful, but even with mineless, they still aren't (I've since found a use for UR though in another context).
I've been testbedding this idea for quite a while, and I took this race into an actual game:
PRT: IT
LRT: ARM, ISB, NAS (should have had RS, but didn't)
0.53g to 1.80g
Temp immune
Rad: 16mR to 84mR
(1/3 hab)
19% gr
-FM econ settings
Weap, Prop, Con cheap,
Energy normal,
Elec, Bio expensive,
Expensive start at 3.
This race designed for a non ACC-BBS start (my game preference anyway, it only costs a few turns, and a wider variety of races such as AR stand a better chance)
Design Rationale:
* Use the massive amount of points given my -m and the somewhat lesser amount of points used by -f to take good tech settings, and _really_ good hab.
* Definately don't want NRSE, as makes cost of engines crippling
* Don't want IFE, as it is expensive without NRSE, so use cheap propulsion instead
* NAS so can be really sure that you can spot things coming before they see the mining fleet
* A trick: by taking Elec expensive, and Expensive start at 3, my starting Con/Elec were 5/3 - so the two miners that I started with were Robo-miners, for 48 mine equivalents right from the start.
To play:
After an initial couple of scouts and a medium freighter, start building potato bugs at full speed, and mine the nearest worthwhile planet. Move all the ironium and most of the pop from the second planet to the first for faster ramp up. Also scrap the starting DD and Freighter for ironium when it starts running short.
When the planet is about to reach 25%, start building enough medium freighters and colony ships to keep it there, settling one planet each turn. Take just enough extra minerals to build a space dock, and send the freighters back for reuse. If this is done carefully, there will be enough ironium to build enough freighters and keep building some miners. It is _crucial_ to be always building more miners. It is not uncommon in testbeds for there to be enough ironium that the homeworld never has to spend anything on research.
Research Prop to at least 8, pref 9 for good ramscoop engines, then take Cons to 8 for larger freighters, Elec 4 for better miners, and Cons 10 for the inf/300ly starbase. It is crucial to be building large gateable freighters relatively early, otherwise when the first colonies reach 25%, all the ironium will be gobbled by freighters.
Then keep researching Con/Elec as fast as possible to keep building better miners.
Expand aggressively, scan aggressively (I eventually drop a 'bug' at each planet because I have NAS), and kill any scouts that even come close to the mining fleet, say within 200 ly (SS and WM would be the bane of this race, JOAT is a problem too).
Lots and lots of MM - if you aren't carefully shepherding every kiloton of ironium for the first 40 or more years, you aren't doing it right.
I took this into a 3 player game, Non Acc-BBS start, Medium, Dense (but the universe stretched by a non-player to normal density), 3 Expert AI robotoid players (the HE ones). Special rules: because 3 players, there was only 'open diplomacy', in that all messages had to be CC'ed to all players, and no tech/ship trading, otherwise the top player will too easily be brought down by an alliance of the other two.
Results:
I quickly made two enemies because of my killing their scouts, but expanded to fill half the galaxy (sharing that half with the AIs which I largely ignored, only gradually beating them back).
I know one of my opponents was a HP JOAT, the other was IT. I attacked the JOAT (fleets, not planets) with whatever low-ironium beam
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Re: Remote Mining with Vengance. |
Wed, 26 November 2003 13:42 |
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LEit | | Lt. Commander | Messages: 879
Registered: April 2003 Location: CT | |
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Remote miners mine minerals at given rates; that means that each robo super-miner placed on a mining hull acts as a 27 mines, like a 10/x/27 mine setting. So, building 1 maxi-miner hull with 10 robo-super-miners is equivalent to building 270 mines with 10 efficiency.
So, after they have been built, the various robots are not any more or less efficient in getting minerals out of the planet.
[Updated on: Wed, 26 November 2003 13:45]
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