Home » Stars! 2.6/7 » The Academy » Remote Mining with Vengance.
Re: Remote Mining with Vengance. |
Wed, 06 August 2003 00:33 |
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I can't figure out how you've designed a factoryless race with 1/3 1-immune and all those LRT's. What's your PGR % at? The best I could manage for a sensible PP was 1/5 hab at 19% growth and 9/3/9 mines. It doesn't look competitive with my 10/3/17 OBRM design at all.
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Re: Remote Mining with Vengance. |
Wed, 06 August 2003 19:12 |
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alexdstewart | | Chief Warrant Officer 2 | Messages: 164
Registered: July 2003 Location: Brisbane, QLD. | |
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Coyote wrote on Wed, 06 August 2003 00:13 |
The only problem I can see is that your resource curve will have peaked long before your mineral curve kicks in.
Yeah, a -m WM is a pain in the rear
Too much damn effort to reach con 8 and elec 4 in the very beginning...
So I came up with the following:
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RPT: SS
LRP: IFE, ARM, ISB, LSP
Hab:
grav 0.52-1.92g
temp -88 to 88*C
rad immune
1 in 3.5ish planets
pop 10res/10000p
fac 10/25/16
mine 5/15/5
Energy, Con, Weapons, Elec cheap, rest exp.
Race type: MK (monster killer )
Reasoning behind it:
With most people taking con, energy, elec exp, the effective spy bonus for this babe is not nice, it is AWESOME. You'll get to prop 2 and con 8 before you HW reaches 25% ( ). Meaning you'll be able to build reasonable miners AND save huge on minerals for Freighters. Because you need to spend 3.5 time less on reseach than an average race, even being an -f race will not hinder your reseach. In fact I would expect you to remain a leader in tech field for the rest of the game. IFE+ISD=HE expansion (my only regret is that space dock can't make remote miners- oh well you can't have everything... ).
I maxed out the no. of fac to make you about as res dence as the neighbour you are conquering.
Note I was playing in Medium/Normal when i got to cruisers in 2424 with WM and bunch of other AI...
In the Future there is only WAR...
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Re: Remote Mining with Vengance. |
Wed, 06 August 2003 19:52 |
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alexdstewart | | Chief Warrant Officer 2 | Messages: 164
Registered: July 2003 Location: Brisbane, QLD. | |
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iztok wrote on Wed, 06 August 2003 03:03 |
alexdstewart wrote on Wed, 06 August 2003 01:41 | ... a -m race of conventional design doesn't stand a chance.
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Huh? Conventional -m race?
If your race has i in 3 hab with an immunity then forget remote mining. Your race will live almost everywhere at the max terra. Get OBRM and 10/3/10 mines. A -f has usually more than enough minerals to play with, as it has not enough resouces to convert those minerals into ships. Also, -f race usualy requires +MM, so why taking another burden with RM?
A -m designs just don't work. I know that. I've been in a game where every race had to chose mine eff of 5 (check RGCS for "Well's Bottom"). Do I need to tell you that most races that have decided to relay on RM exclusively never had a chance? When I've been conquering their planets they had 5-10 levels higher tech then my race, but not enough minerals to even build defensive ships. They have fielded remote miners in numbers in the late mid game, when I stopped my attacks on them to fight the big monster in the lead. My race was WM with 5/3/20 mines AND with standard remote miners. When those -m players were collecting tech and minerals for remotes I already had a fleet of 180 maxi miner robots. The nett impact on the game was I had almost the same amount of minerals available as the lead monster with twice the number of planets and almost three times my economy. He started building Doom and Disruptor BBs much earlier so I had the chance to counterdesign his both designs with heavily jammed 1st shoot Mark4 Dreadnought and a lot of chaff. After I've killed most of his flet and with one ally destroyed half of his planets we agreed the game's over.
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With all due respect, I think that those RM players played conventional tactics in a different situation, and hence they lost. Those guys did't have enough minerals to build their ships, but I assure you, then I destroyed all of my neighbour AI's, I didn't do it using conjured battleships. They all were very real nasty 80+% cloaked BC with beams and delta torpedoes. (+100 shields, etc)
This is not about extracting minerals. It is about building remote miners early and using the RC ps to bolster your hab and tech settings to make your -f race faster reseacher, quicker to expand, more efficient and enduring. You do not colonize all the yellow worlds unless they provide the shortcut to your greener worlds, and since you have a lot of them, you'll grow exponentially for longer than a conventional -f race. When you suck all the minerals out of your yellow worlds, you depopulate your Green worlds and start sucking them out
You use your next level quality ships to disrupt opposition's supply lines, bomb them with your LBU, cripple them with pick pocket and robber baron. Your worlds don't worth conquering for the opposition, since they only ocassionally have defences and no mines or factories, while when you conquer them, you get to operate all those mines and factories. Sure MM is a problem, but is you play properly, there won't be half as many fleets and worlds to worry about, cause chaos would reign in the universe.
All I can say is that you'll need to develop locust psychology and not get too attached to your worlds. And use torpedoes not missiles! (also get used to paying 6res/mine untill U get to better miners)
In the Future there is only WAR...
Therefore our extinction is assured, it is just a matter of where and when.Report message to a moderator
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Re: Remote Mining with Vengance. |
Wed, 06 August 2003 21:13 |
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Sotek | | Chief Warrant Officer 2 | Messages: 167
Registered: November 2002 | |
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I'll take on your -fm race with a factoried and mine-possessing race in a tiny of any density you care to name, if you want.
I'll have ~1 in 8 hab, and will almost certainly kick your ass, I do believe.
Or I can play with a -f IT and outgrow you *very* rapidly, most likely swamping you.
Or I could even try an HP, which I think would *still* win. ... possibly not in a tiny, but in a small, almost certainly.
[Updated on: Wed, 06 August 2003 21:16] Report message to a moderator
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Re: Remote Mining with Vengance. |
Wed, 06 August 2003 21:43 |
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alexdstewart wrote on Tue, 05 August 2003 19:41 | Yes, Yes I am testing the race now...
I am NOT STUPID and know perfectly well that a -m race of conventional design doesn't stand a chance. But who said that I designed a conventional -m race? I designed an -f mineless race!
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Micha suggested that I read this thread, and respond to it. I had a few opinions that I was going to post. But after reading these last few posts, I HAVE to post my comments to these first.
In my younger days of folly I did something similar to the game listed above...
Here is a clip from my message to the other players at the end of the game...
"To begin with, I decided that I wanted to play a Space Demolotion, as I had never played that before. I decided that I would play a very isolationist race, and not let anyone share my space, even allies.
My biggest mistake was not testing my race design. I would guess I was busy with work or something, but I did not have much time. So I threw together a race, tested it one quick time, and sent in the race file.
I built a -f -m race. (no Factories, no Mines). And I took all the advanced mining options. I figured that the remote miners would provide me with enough minerals to expand. This was a major problem actually. My lack of minerals in the early years really hampered my growth.
One of the better points was that all my extra resources went either into terraforming or research, as I never needed to build the mines or factories. This is why I started out in the lead in tech.
I have another Stars! friend, in Belgium actually, that accused me
of liking to torture myself after he looked at my files. First of all SD takes a lot of MM (Micro Management). And then of course so does remote mining. So I had basically built a broken race that was MM Hell.
And my friend laughed at me, and casually mentioned that you should NEVER combine an SD with a mining race. Both require extra design slots. So again, I had to do extra management, this time to keep my number of designs down. The one GOOD point related to this was that as my 'bad' LRT (one of from the list was required) I had taken BET (Bleeding Edge Tech) which further reduced the cost of older designs. Toward the end my chaff were costing me 9 resources each and my Jihad cruisers were less than 150 if I remember.
So I was very protective of my minerals and mining ships and mining planets.
[cutting out game specific details...]
Given the race I was playing I was very happy to get to second place. I never expected to be able to do that. I give credit in two places: 1) help from the XXXXXXXXX especially in the tech that helped me get the best mining robot and 2) positioning. In the end I may have the largest area of any race in the game. If someone had run into me earlier, I could easily have have been taken out. I achieved one VC, and could have achieved a second
in another 1-2 turns. And if I had wanted a third VC, I could have colonized all my mining planets, but I really did not want to do this as then I would have no mineral sources.
Playing SD was fun. I like the minefields and learned a lot about how to do it fairly well, though I never really took the time to do an 'expert' job. One thing that was VERY nice was the ability to go through other minefields at a much higher speed. Enemy minefields seldom slowed me down, as my sweepers could go in to sweep the fields at high speeds (warp 7 or with very little
chance of getting hit. And a cloaked pen-scanning super minelayer was fun too.
I would recommend against anyone ever playing a race with remote miners and no mining capability on your main planets, unless maybe you play AR."
You can stop laughing now. It is over.
To add in a few more comments: a race like this MUST spend all of it's starting minerals on remote miners and a few transports. Otherwise you are just plain dead, as you will not have enough minerals even to get started. And you need to stay focused on building transports and remote miners, otherwise t
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Re: Remote Mining with Vengance. |
Wed, 06 August 2003 21:53 |
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alexdstewart | | Chief Warrant Officer 2 | Messages: 164
Registered: July 2003 Location: Brisbane, QLD. | |
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I am not going to aswer obvious questions from the last few posts. But I am going to ask one of my own:
HOW THE HELL WILL YOU MANAGE TO COLONIZE MORE THAN A FEW WORLDS IF MOST OR ALL OF YOUR SCOUTS WILL BE DESTROYED BY MY ARMED PROBES AND YOUR COLONIZERS HARRASSED BY BLACKJACK DESTROYERS?
And how well will your -f IT manage its pop is your stargates are not build for the simple reason that they'd be taken down as soon as they are build? You will start exporting pop in 2414.
Me too. You'll have to spend 2-3 turns to get to a world. I need only 1-2. You'll loose pop growth in transit, I won't. No matter how hard you try I will be ahead of you in tech qualitively (Ever tried to destroy a faster basooka destroyer/cruiser with slower ship Yakamoras?). I do admit that this particular race is not much better against -f races than usual in one on one. But I do claim that it will decimate HG/HP filled universe. You simply can't buy as many advantages with any other -f, HG, HP races. All of my disadvantages become advantages quickly and I will play max on my advantages:
better hab, tech, conquering bonus, cheap FM + Space Docks on every planet, 1-2 turn transit time between colonies, inherit 75% cloak, better scanners+ penetrating scanners, early LBU's, pick pockets, nasty early weapons and hulls.
If you are itching to taste all of that on you, be my guest and join the next 'list' game.
(Yes, I shall enjoy those factories he built...)
In the Future there is only WAR...
Therefore our extinction is assured, it is just a matter of where and when.Report message to a moderator
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Re: Remote Mining with Vengance. |
Wed, 06 August 2003 23:07 |
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Sotek | | Chief Warrant Officer 2 | Messages: 167
Registered: November 2002 | |
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alexdstewart wrote on Wed, 06 August 2003 21:53 | I am not going to aswer obvious questions from the last few posts. But I am going to ask one of my own:
HOW THE HELL WILL YOU MANAGE TO COLONIZE MORE THAN A FEW WORLDS IF MOST OR ALL OF YOUR SCOUTS WILL BE DESTROYED BY MY ARMED PROBES AND YOUR COLONIZERS HARRASSED BY BLACKJACK DESTROYERS?
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By defending myself. If we start 300 LY away, you are *not* going to be able to stop me.
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And how well will your -f IT manage its pop is your stargates are not build for the simple reason that they'd be taken down as soon as they are build? You will start exporting pop in 2414.
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Wrong. I'll start exporting pop in 2407 or 2408. I'll have to to keep under 33% on my HW.
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Me too. You'll have to spend 2-3 turns to get to a world. I need only 1-2. You'll loose pop growth in transit, I won't. No matter how hard you try I will be ahead of you in tech qualitively (Ever tried to destroy a faster basooka destroyer/cruiser with slower ship Yakamoras?). I do admit that
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Cruisers by 2415. Bazookas by 2420. You so sure you'll be ahead?
Don't forget that the moment I touch down on a world I'll be reinforcing with no growth loss.
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this particular race is not much better against -f races than usual in one on one. But I do claim that it will decimate HG/HP filled universe. You simply can't buy as many advantages with any other -f, HG, HP races. All of my disadvantages become advantages quickly and I will play max on my advantages:
better hab, tech, conquering bonus, cheap FM + Space Docks on every planet, 1-2 turn transit time between colonies, inherit 75% cloak, better scanners+ penetrating scanners, early LBU's, pick pockets, nasty early weapons and hulls.
If you are itching to taste all of that on you, be my guest and join the next 'list' game.
(Yes, I shall enjoy those factories he built...)
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Your advantages simply won't come into play in a real game.
You won't have the minerals.
You will not have the miners as fast as you think.
Try playing an empty testbed and seeing how fast you get your miners.
That'll still be faster than realistic, because people won't be doing research, they'll be building.
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Re: Remote Mining with Vengance. |
Thu, 07 August 2003 05:06 |
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iztok | | Commander | Messages: 1210
Registered: April 2003 Location: Slovenia, Europe | |
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Hi!
alexdstewart wrote on Thu, 07 August 2003 01:52 | With all due respect, I think that those RM players played conventional tactics in a different situation, and hence they lost.
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Yes, it was really different situation as in your testbeds against AIs. They started close to a competent and aggressive WM player with much bigger mineral output than they had.
Quote: | when I destroyed all of my neighbour AI's, I didn't do it using conjured battleships
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IIRC I used about 300 Bazooka FFs with FM, tech 6 shields and 250 minbombers with single M-70 bomb (to keep them safely gateable).
Quote: | Those guys did't have enough minerals to build their ships...
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That's exactly my point. You will also not have enough minerals to field your warships in numbers. Even if you'll have a tech advantage you'll soon realize that the quantity has a quality of its own.
Quote: | This is not about extracting minerals. It is about building remote miners early
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... that will use all minerals on your HW. Let's assume you start with 500k iron on HW. With that you can build 7 midget miners with maxi robots. That gives you about 250 mines mining at MC 70 each turn 175 kt of minerals. So they pay for them-self in 3 years. But where are minerals for building freighters to move your growing pop around? From turn 5 you will need each turn 40k iron and 40k germ just to move pop from your HW. Since you'll have a lot of greens you'll soon need a lot of freighters. Where are minerals for freighters that will move back your remotely mined minerals? Where are minerals to build your warships in 2420 when your opponents will start fielding bazooka CCs in dozens to calm you down?
Quote: | HOW THE HELL WILL YOU MANAGE TO COLONIZE MORE THAN A FEW WORLDS IF MOST OR ALL OF YOUR SCOUTS WILL BE DESTROYED BY MY ARMED PROBES AND YOUR COLONIZERS HARRASSED BY BLACKJACK DESTROYERS?
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You can not catch a FM scout with an Armed probe if you are not a WM. Your BJ destroyers will not catch colonizers and will be destroyed by a bunch of red laser scouts, that will probably get your better weap tech as a bonus.
Your main problem seems to be lack of living opponents. Forget ultra stupid AI, start thinking in terms of what would YOU do in such a situation, as your opponent will do that for sure. Finish some games, come back and read your posts again and I believe you'll realize that ideas you've posted are c... ekhm ... not usable, if you want to win a game with living opponents.
BR, Iztok
[Updated on: Thu, 07 August 2003 05:22] Report message to a moderator
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Re: Remote Mining with Vengance. |
Thu, 07 August 2003 08:06 |
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Thanks Micha for finding my old password!!
Here is the 'broken' race that I played. I will not post all the strange race design conditions, but say that some LRTs were restricted, and a choice of others was required.
SD
IFE, TT, ARM, UR, BET
Grav: Immune
Temp: -68 to 108
Rad: 23 to 67
15% growth rate
1 in 5
1/800
5/25/5
5/15/5
Const, Weap, Bio: cheap
Elec: normal
Prop, Energy: expensive
Points left: 10
Please do not try to tell me all the things that I did wrong. I already know a LOT of things that I did wrong. Remember, I actually played this race in a game.
This game was played in a reshaped universe. A large packed shaped into a Torus, or dounut if you like. Slow tech. AccBBS. Public Scores. Game VCs were used:
25% of all planets.
18 tech in 4 fields
Production of 50K
200 capital ships
Must meet 3 VCs, min 50 years.
The game ended in year 2492, when a HE player met three of the VCs (not the planets).
At the time I was in second place. I had almost 800 mini miners with the ultra miner robot. I had 108 planets, 38K resources, and roughly one mining planet for each colonized planet. Final techs 15, 22, 15, 20, 18, 17. The primary reason I was in second place was that I had hundreds of Doomsday CCs. The first place economy was about 60K. Several other players had about 40K.
I was LUCKY, that I had no other players near me for a LONG time. And the winner HE, was in one direction, and I made an alliance with him. It was from him that I gained some extra tech that helped me build the best miners. I never actually saw any of the other race designs, but I guess that many of them were broken as well, given the design constraints.
My final opinion: MM hell. A variation of this race might succeed in a beginner or intermediate game, if played well. This race would NEVER do well in an advanced game, even if run by an expert. (Uhm, with the exception that if the player was a master diplomat, and could get others NOT to attack him for a while... but then this is counter to the whole -f idea to begin with...)
Any other stories out there?
Dancer
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Re: Remote Mining with Vengance. |
Wed, 13 August 2003 13:19 |
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Yes.
I'd post more to answer but... I'm not sure if there is more to it.
He does give differing amounts of technology advances depending on minerals IIRC, but if it's an item or ship he gives... then tough.
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