Home » Stars! 2.6/7 » The Academy » Time to ROI on terraforming
Time to ROI on terraforming |
Sat, 16 July 2011 20:41 |
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Void | | Ensign | Messages: 369
Registered: January 2011 Location: California, GMT -7 | |
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How long does it take to get a return on terraforming investment? Some formulaic advice would be great, but I'll also take anecdotal.
Consider the early game. You're rushing to get, I dunno, Bazooka Frigates, so you populate a handful of juicy greens, build enough mines to generate the required minerals, then crank out your battle fleet. Now what?
You're trying to figure out when to flesh out those big greens or grow the smaller greens, but you've got an eye on getting to Jihads to counter the next threat or go after your next victim.
Obviously, terraforming pays off in the long-term, but when you're driven by short-term needs, how do you decide when to invest in it? And how much? And does this differ if your a non-, one-, or two-immune race?
Experts...do tell!
Cheers,
Void
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Re: Time to ROI on terraforming |
Sat, 16 July 2011 20:57 |
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I'm no expert but I tend to save the first 200res of a planet for facts etc (so generally no terra before 300res output) and after that try and spend up to 50% on terra.
Of course I throw that out for the odd tech/production rush.
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Re: Time to ROI on terraforming |
Sun, 17 July 2011 06:36 |
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magic9mushroom | | Commander | Messages: 1369
Registered: May 2008 | |
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Void wrote on Sun, 17 July 2011 10:41 | How long does it take to get a return on terraforming investment? Some formulaic advice would be great, but I'll also take anecdotal.
Consider the early game. You're rushing to get, I dunno, Bazooka Frigates, so you populate a handful of juicy greens, build enough mines to generate the required minerals, then crank out your battle fleet. Now what?
You're trying to figure out when to flesh out those big greens or grow the smaller greens, but you've got an eye on getting to Jihads to counter the next threat or go after your next victim.
Obviously, terraforming pays off in the long-term, but when you're driven by short-term needs, how do you decide when to invest in it? And how much? And does this differ if your a non-, one-, or two-immune race?
Experts...do tell!
Cheers,
Void
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Well, I suppose it depends on how crowded you are.
I mean, if you're at 100% capacity, and improve your hab from 50% to 51%, for a non-JoaT OBRM 1/1000 10/9/13 race you'd be getting 25 extra resources per turn, enough to pay 1 click of terra back in a mere 4 turns (which is much faster than factories).
If you're at 50% capacity, though, it'll take 8 turns for the extra capacity to pay back the terra - and you still have to get the pop from somewhere.
So, if you can immediately use the extra capacity and are crowded, it's ridiculously good to terraform.
As far as increased pop growth goes, though, terra is strictly a long-term measure. The same 50% to 51% boost only increases growth (assuming 19% growth and 25% hold here) from 13100 to 13600 (which will pay itself back in 87 turns for the settings mentioned above).
- Races with a narrow hab field (immunities are largely irrelevant to this, though having a narrow hab without them is usually a bad idea) get far more benefit from terraforming. I'd say divide all those payback times by 2.
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Re: Time to ROI on terraforming |
Sun, 17 July 2011 11:39 |
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Void | | Ensign | Messages: 369
Registered: January 2011 Location: California, GMT -7 | |
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BeeKeeper wrote on Sun, 17 July 2011 03:19 | Where I struggle is what to do if I colonise a yellow planet that is say currently -4% but could be 50% after terraforming.
If there are sufficient pop available then I might drop 300k or 400k and then set terraforming to 1% from the outset possibly going to 2% as factories are built.
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I'm assuming your 300-400k example isn't for the yellow planet, as most of that pop would be unproductive. You raise a good point, though, as the approach is going to be different if you're flush with pop later in the game and looking to quickly build a yellow or poor green. There are a couple of different approaches to take there, but if it's one planet out of dozens, the difference between the two approaches won't likely be all that material. Conversely, if we're talking early game, and trying to ramp up quickly, any difference between approaches could be very significant!
So your initial approach is to ramp up to 200 resources, then add 1%(?) of terra each year. Fair enough.
Cheers,
Void
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Re: Time to ROI on terraforming |
Sun, 17 July 2011 11:43 |
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Void | | Ensign | Messages: 369
Registered: January 2011 Location: California, GMT -7 | |
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magic9mushroom wrote on Sun, 17 July 2011 03:36 | I mean, if you're at 100% capacity, and improve your hab from 50% to 51%, for a non-JoaT OBRM 1/1000 10/9/13 race you'd be getting 25 extra resources per turn, enough to pay 1 click of terra back in a mere 4 turns (which is much faster than factories).
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That provides additional potential resources as you allude to later..."and you still have to get the pop from somewhere".
Quote: | So, if you can immediately use the extra capacity and are crowded, it's ridiculously good to terraform.
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Agreed, although as you likely surmised, I'm still trying to figure out early game strategies.
Quote: | As far as increased pop growth goes, though, terra is strictly a long-term measure. The same 50% to 51% boost only increases growth (assuming 19% growth and 25% hold here) from 13100 to 13600 (which will pay itself back in 87 turns for the settings mentioned above).
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Not sure I follow your math, there. Can you elaborate?
Cheers,
Void
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Re: Time to ROI on terraforming |
Sun, 17 July 2011 11:45 |
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Void | | Ensign | Messages: 369
Registered: January 2011 Location: California, GMT -7 | |
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magic9mushroom wrote on Sun, 17 July 2011 04:25 | 'Tis irrelevant. Until you get your 100 resources that you spent back, you haven't gained anything from the terra. It's not resources that matter, it's resource integral.
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True, but is it the resource integral up to a certain point, or after? If it's the former, then your point is well take. If it's the latter, then the resources will drive the resource integral moving forward.
Likely, it's both. And unless we're in the very late game, I would imagine it's safe to say there will be good things to spend resources on.
Cheers,
Void
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Re: Time to ROI on terraforming |
Sun, 17 July 2011 14:27 |
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m.a@stars | | Commander | Messages: 2768
Registered: October 2004 Location: Third star to the left | |
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Void wrote on Sun, 17 July 2011 17:33 | And that's the root of the question. When does it make sense to put one in front of the others? It sounds as though for a -f, in particular, you're suggesting early investment in terra is very important!
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Sounds as if the very early game is what interests you, so:
Germ for Facs is usually at a premium, and very few planets will have enough, and even less to spare.
Factores compound as per their cost/productivity ratio, modified by the available Germ, so available Resources, cost of Mines, Productivity of Mines, and Mineral Concentrations also matter. As do, after the few initial years, the amount of Operated Mines.
On the other hand, Pop (and its Resources) compounds as per existing Pop and Hab, so it's no surprise that for many races and planets, Pop growth is the main factor in the early years, and the only ways to improve it are sending more Pop and/or Terraforming.
That makes Breeders important, but if you cannot improve growth by bringing more Pop (because you can't spare it, or because of crowding) then the best thing you can do is Terra, as it not only improves growth, but also gets more room for that growth.
All of which translates into Default Production Queues like this one:
Quote: | (auto)build 10 Facs (or about what 100 Res can do in a turn)
(auto)build 20 Mines (or about what 100 Res can do in a turn)
(auto)Terra 1 Point (you'll reach here if you have enough Res to do it in 1 turn)
(auto)build 20 Facs
(auto)build 40 Mines (you'll reach here if you have 500 Res or 200 Res and no Germ)
(auto)Terra 5 Points
(auto)build 200 Facs
(auto)build 400 Mines
(auto)Terra 25 Points
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That is:
1st, spend all the Germ, but if there's not enough,
2nd, build a bunch of Mines, but if there's Res to spare,
3rd, do some Terra. If there's more Res and Germ,
Do more Facs, Mines, and Terra.
And so on, until maxxed.
This kind of Queue has several advantages:
if there's more Germ, you'll automatically build more Facs before anything else.
if you have plenty Resources, spending some in Terra won't kill you.
it can be made "steeper" or "flatter" to suit needs or tastes. It can also be adjusted to TT (70 instead of 100 Res)
works for Yellows and Greens.
can be "capped" to only the few initial lines to free Res for things like Research or shipbuilding, or to free some Germ.
ships and other "one shot" items can be added at the start, the end, or the middle, allowing some "timing control".
And the best, it frees you to think mainly about Xploring, Xpanding and Xterminating!
...
[Updated on: Sun, 17 July 2011 17:51]
So many Stars, so few Missiles!
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Re: Time to ROI on terraforming |
Sun, 17 July 2011 15:24 |
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Void | | Ensign | Messages: 369
Registered: January 2011 Location: California, GMT -7 | |
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m.a@stars wrote on Sun, 17 July 2011 11:27 | Sounds as if the very early game is what interests you.
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Yes, it is.
Quote: | That is:
1st, spend all the Germ, but if there's not enough,
2nd, build a bunch of Mines, but if there's Res to spare,
3rd, do some Terra. If there's more Res and Germ,
Do more Facs, Mines, and Terra.
And so on, until maxxed.
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That makes sense, intuitively, and the autobuild orders you suggest get to my question of when, by way of suggesting how much of each to do.
Quote: | And the best, it frees you to think mainly about Xploring, Xpanding and Xterminating!
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And that's the whole point of all this, isn't it?
Thanks for the well thought out and articulated reply. Much appreciated!
Cheers,
Void
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Re: Time to ROI on terraforming |
Mon, 18 July 2011 06:27 |
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magic9mushroom | | Commander | Messages: 1369
Registered: May 2008 | |
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Void wrote on Mon, 18 July 2011 01:43 |
That provides additional potential resources as you allude to later..."and you still have to get the pop from somewhere".
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In case you're wondering, I was including the capacity from the extra factories the pop could operate.
Quote: | Agreed, although as you likely surmised, I'm still trying to figure out early game strategies.
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Indeed. I was just summarising the most clear-cut case.
Quote: | Not sure I follow your math, there. Can you elaborate?
Cheers,
Void
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I forget how I did that, actually. I believe I screwed it up.
The point is, in general, that the extra pop growth isn't significant enough to matter in the short term (less than 20 turns) unless you have a really narrow band.
Void wrote on Mon, 18 July 2011 01:45 | True, but is it the resource integral up to a certain point, or after? If it's the former, then your point is well take. If it's the latter, then the resources will drive the resource integral moving forward.
Likely, it's both. And unless we're in the very late game, I would imagine it's safe to say there will be good things to spend resources on.
Cheers,
Void
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Well, obviously, terra pays itself off in the long run, but your question is when to do it.
Generally, factories and mines should come first, as long as that's what will get the terra done the fastest. IOW, it really depends on both your race specs and the planet.
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Re: Time to ROI on terraforming |
Mon, 18 July 2011 06:29 |
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goober | | Chief Warrant Officer 3 | Messages: 175
Registered: December 2003 Location: +10 | |
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Void wrote on Mon, 18 July 2011 01:33 |
It sounds as though you rarely worry about it because you've already put the thought into determining your growth strategy, so now you focus your thinking on the game at hand.
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Actually, the giants upon whose shoulders I now stand did all the analysis
Quote: |
Do you really mean 10 mines for your -f queue?
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Yes! The HW is usually set at building 30 mines per year at the start, but after that I'm interested in growth and tech. You need the pop before you can get the tech so terraforming is important and a few mines to build up minerals for SD's and some auxiliary ships is fine. The HW can also ship out mins and gate the odd warship where it needs to be or provide escorts.
Once I'm ready to go on a war footing I can then change production queues.
Quote: | And that's the root of the question. When does it make sense to put one in front of the others? It sounds as though for a -f, in particular, you're suggesting early investment in terra is very important!
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Pop = Resources = Tech/Mines = Warhips = More Planets = More Pop
And around the merry-go-round we continue.
I've played, ignoring terraforming and I've played doing early terraforming. With an immunity, the latter has always been more effective. While the initial tech growth is quicker for the former, the latter catches up and beats it later, still within the lets kill a neighbour time frame. But you still have to tweak to suit local conditions.
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Re: Time to ROI on terraforming |
Mon, 18 July 2011 09:04 |
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Void | | Ensign | Messages: 369
Registered: January 2011 Location: California, GMT -7 | |
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goober wrote on Mon, 18 July 2011 03:29 | Pop = Resources = Tech/Mines = Warhips = More Planets = More Pop
And around the merry-go-round we continue.
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Isn't that so. I've seen others comment that Stars is the ultimate game of rock-paper-scissors from a competitive standpoint; whatever you do, there's a counter for, and a counter for that, and a...
What impresses me is the number of ways just to grow your empire, without the battle side of it. You can invest in early terra now, and the cost of earlier tech, but the benefit of better long term growth and capacity.
Cheers,
Void
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Re: Time to ROI on terraforming |
Tue, 19 July 2011 19:07 |
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When to terraform... depends *grin* to make the usual Stars comment:
1) What are the game victory conditions
2) What kind of race have you designed
- If it is a HP then you usually will go for factories first
3) Can you afford to allocate your ressources to further development (and terraforming is a kind of development like factory building is) or are you in the middle of a war and should better massproduce warships...
4) What kind of game are you playing in? Will it last for 60 turns or for more than 100 turns?
5) Do you need pop? Do you urgently need a breeder? Or one more at this specific position?
A very helpful tool I use is Per's terra-hab.spreadshed:
* Per's Terra-Hab-Tool, V 1.03
If it shows that I can gain +4% with one terraform, well, I'll usually go for it.
But do I need a dock, a base, whatever for strategic reasons on this planet first? More urgent than terraforming, a better economy?
On a yellow planet I usually make a rule-of-thumb decision: -3% or less and I terraform rightaway, if it is -4% or more, perhaps factories are better to go first with... but, again, this depends on your factory settings and the tactical positions of the planet.
It is surprisingly complex to decide when and perhaps if at all to terraform. Which is a fine thing and why we are playing Stars. No tool can really give you definite answere because it is a strategical decision dependent on several factors.
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Re: Time to ROI on terraforming |
Tue, 19 July 2011 19:52 |
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Since it occurs to me.. I've been vaguely searching for this for awhile...
Someone (one of those giants) wrote an article about a study they did on growth, terraforming, factory production and the resource integral. Complete with pretty graphs. It wasn't collected by Stars-r-us or the other usual article collectors.
Does anyone even remember it? remember where it was? have a copy?
iirc it was a zipped up something...web page? perhaps...I don't think it was word/pdf type thing.
[Updated on: Tue, 19 July 2011 19:53] Report message to a moderator
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