Home » Primary Racial Traits » HE » HE - usable?
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Re: HE - usable? |
Sat, 17 April 2004 12:42 |
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Zoid wrote :
zoid wrote on Thu, 16 January 2003 23:21 |
TheJorrus wrote on Thu, 16 January 2003 07:30 | Half the pop yes but! Only Half the pop needed get maximum resources too!
| I think you missed my point altogether. You're still assuming (like I always did) that an HE will produce twice as many colonists as any other PRT given the same growth rate if all other factors are equal, which isn't true.
<EXAMPLE>
HE: Growth rate = 10% (20% growth rate)
CA: Growth rate = 10% (We could use any other PRT for comparison purpose but we'll use CA because it is 10 points cheaper than an HE PRT)
No OBRM involved for either prt -
Habitat value of a planet for each race 100%, both planets at 25% population cap for max growth. That's 125,000 for the HE, and 250,000 for the CA.
HE growth per turn is 125,000(.2)=25,000
CA growth per turn is 250,000(.1)=25,000
There's no advantage there. Not for the HE anyways. If all other factory and mine settings are the same he's just producing half as much while maintaining the same growth rate. To change his economy, habitat, or any other settings to gain an advantage, the HE must give something else up, and the CA in question can do the exact same thing, get the same number of points to make exactly the same changes as an HE and gain the same outcome. No advantage for the HE, but disadvantage? You betcha!
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Only read this at the moment and have to say something to it
I know you do freestyl math but :
If we would say that both race starts with 25% cab ( what will be a big advatage for the CA needs normaly 12 rounds he only 2 for cab 25% )
Yes send all the time away your kolonists , so on the new planet the CA kolonist grow with 2,500 Kolonists the HE with 5,000 kolonists , so the HE will always win this duell by outbreeding the CA and overrun them .
You are right the CA will have double the Resourses by a full outbuildet world but never will reach this against a race with 10% mor grow .
ccmaster
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[Updated on: Sat, 17 April 2004 12:46] Report message to a moderator
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Re: HE - usable? |
Fri, 23 April 2004 14:48 |
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A limitation to HG HE is planets+transporting.
HG HE loves dense universe, it is harder to transport fast growing pop in sparser.
HG HE is gateless and thus is harder to defend when spread thin compared to others with gates.
HG HE loves non AccBBS and unfortunately most games are AccBBS.
With AccBBS, you are in a rush to get pop moving in the beginning. With non-AccBBS you have time to scout and prepare and you get a huge pop lead over everyone else to start with.
Eventually you run out of planets to expand to (unless you can somehow easily blitz over neighbours).
[Updated on: Fri, 23 April 2004 14:49] Report message to a moderator
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Re: HE - usable? |
Sat, 24 April 2004 14:17 |
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Steve1 | | Officer Cadet 2nd Year | Messages: 240
Registered: January 2003 Location: Australia | |
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Quote: | Yes send all the time away your kolonists , so on the new planet the CA kolonist grow with 2,500 Kolonists the HE with 5,000 kolonists , so the HE will always win this duell by outbreeding the CA and overrun them .
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Um .... I'm not quite sure what you mean by my CA TT race with 19% growth getting only 2500 colonists per year!
HE tri immune growth at 6% (doubled to 12%) is nice, but with only half planet space your plans are soon turned to dust.
Of course many HE races are designed with 3-4% growth. Okay that gives great planetary settings, but only in the long run (that's assuming you survive to the end game).
HE would rule supreme if it had gates like everyone else (like it apparently used to), but if an opponent decides that you're fair game, then it can be very hard to defend against a concerted attack.
Lower minerals and colonist growth per planet (comparitively) combined with ungateability of your chaff and warships makes you an easy target.
I've heard of a couple of excellent players issue challenge to all for a duel, if they play HE of their own design, but these particular players are well above my skill level.
Tell you what, any player that considers themselves low intermediate or "slightly better" is entitled to challenge me to a duel and we shall see how things pan out!
Please no tips and hints are allowed from better players, just someone whom is "no better" than mid intermediate with the knowledge that you have "now".
Testbeds and reading of the manual and forum are allowed, but no knowledge that you have to ask about. May I also request that you be reasonable, eg. no utilising of one of Hetzer's pre-formulated races. Something of your own design (just like I would be doing with my CA race) would be fair.
In case you're not familiar with me, I have not been playing Stars PBEM games for more than a couple of years. I make plenty of mistakes and my math sucks, but I do consider myself to be quite a good strategist. It's only in the
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[Updated on: Sat, 24 April 2004 14:48] Report message to a moderator
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Re: HE - usable? |
Sat, 24 April 2004 14:34 |
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Carn | | Officer Cadet 4th Year | Messages: 284
Registered: May 2003 | |
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ccmaster considered CA and HE with equal growth rate selected in race wizard and both finding enough good planets. A -f CA with 20% growth that has only 100% planets could have 250k resource in 2450, a -f HE with 20% selected growth, so 40% real gowth, that has enough 100% worlds could reach 155 million resources in 2450, thats what ccmaster tries to point at(i know no universe is big enough for that).
Of course the HE needs at least twice as many planets as the CA and through instaforming the CA will get 80-100% worlds in real games, while the HE has no or little chance to find any. Maybe its possible with lowering growth to ~13% and widening habs instead to create a -f HE that can face and beat a -f CA most of the time in duells. With 16 players you have the problem after you destroyed 2-4 neighbours for place to live, the rest of universe will realize you are a real "Hyper Expansionist" and unite to klll you or at least cage you in, which is as good as killing for a -f HE.
Carn
[Updated on: Sat, 24 April 2004 14:37] Report message to a moderator
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Re: HE - usable? |
Sun, 25 April 2004 15:40 |
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@ Steve1
Dont think you mean me for challenge you .
@ Mlaub
Yes growth of 3-4 % dont work a HE have to play like his name say with a growth of 11-18 % (22-34% ) .
ccmaster
[Updated on: Sun, 25 April 2004 15:41] Report message to a moderator
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Re: HE - usable? |
Sun, 25 April 2004 15:46 |
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Carn | | Officer Cadet 4th Year | Messages: 284
Registered: May 2003 | |
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@ ccmaster:
Do you know if HP HE can be brought to any use? I'm thinking about that but i don't want to waste hours on testbed just to realize factories cannot be build fast enough.
Did you ever play/win game with 11-18% HE in a medium/large universe with >8 players?
Carn
[Updated on: Sun, 25 April 2004 15:47] Report message to a moderator
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Re: HE - usable? |
Mon, 26 April 2004 11:14 |
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mlaub | | Lieutenant | Messages: 744
Registered: November 2003 Location: MN, USA | |
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ccmaster wrote on Sun, 25 April 2004 14:40 |
@ Mlaub
Yes growth of 3-4 % dont work a HE have to play like his name say with a growth of 11-18 % (22-34% ) .
ccmaster
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No. A 4% can work, even against a TT CA run by a competent player in the right circumstances. Many people seem to think that a HE is an easy target without gates. This is not true. I have won several games with a 4% HE *without* allies, and lost only 1.
Contrary to popular belief, the 4% HE is not extremely vulnerable in the early years, if you play it correctly. The problem is that it is very vulnerable to a QS player, who understands the game, and identifies the 4% HE. Even a decent HG could do this, if properly motivated. A true HP (all techs expensive) might have issues, as the tech difference would hurt.
The main vulnerability comes later, between Y30-60. This is because that is roughly the start of others having enough ships to kill a jihad SB/Ultrastation. It continues till the growth of the 4% can *catchup* to the rest of the races. I have reached Nubs by Y68, in a *real* game. This, plus near unlimited metal, makes for a very tough race to crack in the later years.
-Matt
Global Warming - A climatic change eagerly awaited by most Minnesotans.
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Re: HE - usable? |
Tue, 27 April 2004 15:06 |
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mlaub | | Lieutenant | Messages: 744
Registered: November 2003 Location: MN, USA | |
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ccmaster wrote on Tue, 27 April 2004 08:24 |
@ Mlaub
yes , you can win a game with a 4% He when they all let you stay alone .
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LOL...Diplomacy is part of the game! So is Bluff and Bluster!
Sure, I *want* to wait till nubs, but it doesn't always happen. Sometimes you have to build destroyers, cruisers, and BB's.
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My first game i won with a 4% HE , years ago , but in a normal game when your neighbours see that you are playing HE with such a solw grow they will eliminate you , maybe ally but a HE have not so much to give away .
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Heh, maybe, but looking at SNIPER email, you told me to "watch out!" cause I was a "low growth WM with no minefields..." I wasn't a WM, so obviously you couldn't distinguish my PRT. I was trying to hide my PRT, ofc. It is truly ironic, though, that I attacked *you* (you playing a TT CA, me a 4% HE) before Y50 with cruisers and BB's, and you are claiming that that is impossible with a 4% HE.
There is more to it then that, as the game was essentially over by that time. Dan was dead, Kang and Kevin were allied, and no one else seemed to understand that without concerted effort and teamwork, that alliance would win. You were actually my play for trying to stay alive long enough to do something about them, but it failed, as Kang knew what would happen if they left me alone... Had some good battles, though. Would have liked a rematch against Kevin, after I have gone on my -f bender.
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Game sniper , I remeber that i play in a game named sniper but dont know what i played , or that you was in this game .
When was the game ?
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August - Dec, 2001. My email address was the same, I played as the Xeelee (my standard race name).
-Matt
Global Warming - A climatic change eagerly awaited by most Minnesotans.
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Re: HE - usable? |
Wed, 28 April 2004 09:25 |
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mlaub wrote on Tue, 27 April 2004 21:06 |
ccmaster wrote on Tue, 27 April 2004 08:24 |
@ Mlaub
yes , you can win a game with a 4% He when they all let you stay alone .
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Quote: |
Game sniper , I remeber that i play in a game named sniper but dont know what i played , or that you was in this game .
When was the game ?
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August - Dec, 2001. My email address was the same, I played as the Xeelee (my standard race name).
-Matt
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Sorry can still not remember the game but 2001 is long ago , have you maybe a map file or old player files ? Trying to remember me but dont know the player names you told be or your race name , but i am sure that i played in a game names sniper .
Was I replaced ? Dont remeber lots of game i droped , but could be ..?
ccmaster
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Re: HE - usable? |
Wed, 13 December 2006 07:29 |
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iztok | | Commander | Messages: 1210
Registered: April 2003 Location: Slovenia, Europe | |
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Hi!
Recenty I finished for the first time a game with the HE race. The game StarCrossed was set in small sparse universe, with stars remapped in huge X, and with 4 players, each starting in one leg of the X, with about 20 planets just for him. Slow tech, localy crowded stars, only one front to defend and relatively low number of planets per player (24) were IMO a perfect conditions to field a 3-immune HE, and to play the game to the end.
Race
Despite tech was slow I wanted good race speed, because one of players was a well-known veteran, that recently re-joined community, and I didn't want to be stomped too early. So instead my "standard" 5% PGR HE I've choosen a 6% one, with slightly toned-down factories and normal mines. Here it is:
Headache (HE)
ISb, NRSE, OBRM, NAS, RS
3-immune, 6%
1/1000
fac's: 14/9/20
mines: 10/3/21
weap & con cheap; en & elec normal, prop & bio expensive, no start @ 3
mandatory 50 RW points left spent on mineral concentrations.
Race's performance
In all my testbeds that race developed quite fast, compared to other PRTs. What I failed to notice was that it can operate only 1155 mines on a planet. That's quite low even for a -f race with half the economy of my race (2090 resources). I'll not say that I had serious problems with minerals (having every planet at 100% has it's advantages ), but when I started real shipbuilding (jugg & heavyBlaster BBs and lots of chaff) I noticed available minerals went out pretty quickly, and mining replenished them slowly (~300kT from an average maxxed planet at conc. 25). Even my HW had at turn 78, when opponents surrended, min. conc still at 19.
The other thing I had discovered too late was the compound rate of my 6% race and my "testbed standard" 5% race with 15/8/21 factories. 6% race had 20% better pop growth, but 5% race had 20% higher factories compound rate, 10% higher resource output AND significantly better mineral output.
Looking back at the game I've seen only one pop-drop planet exchange in center at turn 11 (which I lost), but after that not a single one more for the next ~40 turns. What I also found lacking was the speed of planets' development. It is true I had in the mid-game quite a lot of pop to throw around, but I didn't have new planets to use them on. Also pop growth was capped (after reaching 25% capacity they grew less and less), while factories compounding wasn't. I can not prove it, but I have a feeling I would fare better with the 5% HE with much better mines, better factories and with pen-scanners.
Conclusion
At least that's what I'm sure: if I'll again chose the HE for a game, it will have significantly more mines as it will have factories.
BR, Iztok
[Updated on: Wed, 13 December 2006 07:35] Report message to a moderator
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Re: HE - usable? |
Thu, 01 March 2007 08:36 |
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Carn | | Officer Cadet 4th Year | Messages: 284
Registered: May 2003 | |
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iztok wrote on Wed, 13 December 2006 13:29 |
Headache (HE)
ISb, NRSE, OBRM, NAS, RS
3-immune, 6%
1/1000
fac's: 14/9/20
mines: 10/3/21
weap & con cheap; en & elec normal, prop & bio expensive, no start @ 3
mandatory 50 RW points left spent on mineral concentrations.
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HE pays more for better facs, so it makes more sense to drop cost to 8 and check g before taking efficiency above 12 or number above 16. That way you save points and get more and faster facs for the same germ.
e.g. 13/8/19/checked/12/3/15 is faster building facs and mines, has more germ shortterm(10 k pop produces 20% less minerals, but needs 30% less germ) and has more minerals long term.
The high fac number and efficiency is not good for 6% 3i HE as it cannot throw points around so much as the slower growing ones.
It of course can be tweaked to have a higher number of mines.
iztok wrote on Wed, 13 December 2006 13:29 |
Race's performance
In all my testbeds that race developed quite fast, compared to other PRTs. What I failed to notice was that it can operate only 1155 mines on a planet. That's quite low even for a -f race with half the economy of my race (2090 resources). I'll not say that I had serious problems with minerals (having every planet at 100% has it's advantages ), but when I started real shipbuilding (jugg & heavyBlaster BBs and lots of chaff) I noticed available minerals went out pretty quickly, and mining replenished them slowly (~300kT from an average maxxed planet at conc. 25). Even my HW had at turn 78, when opponents surrended, min. conc still at 19.
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I do not understand the point, a normal race with 1700 mines on a planet gets due to depletion only 40% more or so, but has 50% more resources. So normal races should have more mineral problems .
iztok wrote on Wed, 13 December 2006 13:29 |
The other thing I had discovered too late was the compound rate of my 6% race and my "testbed standard" 5% race with 15/8/21 factories. 6% race had 20% better pop growth, but 5% race had 20% high |
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[Updated on: Thu, 01 March 2007 08:39] Report message to a moderator
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Re: HE - usable? |
Thu, 01 March 2007 16:05 |
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iztok | | Commander | Messages: 1210
Registered: April 2003 Location: Slovenia, Europe | |
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Hi!
Carn wrote on Thu, 01 March 2007 14:36 | HE pays more for better facs
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That I didn't know at the time of race creation. IMO even now that would not matter much. That's just the price of playing HE.
Quote: | so it makes more sense to drop cost to 8 and check g before taking efficiency above 12 or number above 16.
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We're talking about HE here, with it's planets half the size of normal. Checking g box with 1100 factories operated would lower the germanium cost for one maxxed planet by 1100kT - that's not even a full LF. Also, the tech was slow, so I wanted more speed AND good capacity. Speed I intended to get with more pop, capacity with good factories.
Quote: | That way you save points and get more and faster facs for the same germ.
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Hrm... 30 RW points saved when going from 14/9/x to 13/8/x, gaining 4.4% in ramp-up speed and losing 7.7% on capacity doesn't seem to me like an excellent deal.
Quote: | e.g. 13/8/19/checked/12/3/15 is faster building facs and mines, has more germ shortterm(10 k pop produces 20% less minerals, but needs 30% less germ) and has more minerals long term.
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Costing 35RW points more like my settings, losing 3 mines (when I already complained about that) and 13.3% on capacity and saving 1045kT of germ per planet again doesn't seem to me like a good bargain. Mine efficiency 1.2 is strong, but 15 mines operated is really weak for a HE. It also puts me 35 points in the hole even for a normal game, not for that one where I had to leave 50 points unspent.
Quote: | I do not understand the point, a normal race with 1700 mines on a planet gets due to depletion only 40% more or so, but has 50% more resources. So normal races should have more mineral problems .
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My race can mine in first 50 turns on my HW 12Mt minerals. Non-HE with 16 mines can mine in the same time 19Mt. When they start en-mass building they can have 55% more ships at turn 60 that I can have.
Quote: | Your mistake was probably, that your factory settings were too good compared to your mine settings, as without minerals resources |
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Re: HE - usable? |
Fri, 02 March 2007 05:05 |
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Carn | | Officer Cadet 4th Year | Messages: 284
Registered: May 2003 | |
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iztok wrote on Thu, 01 March 2007 22:05 | Hi!
Carn wrote on Thu, 01 March 2007 14:36 | HE pays more for better facs
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That I didn't know at the time of race creation. IMO even now that would not matter much. That's just the price of playing HE.
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iztok wrote on Thu, 01 March 2007 22:05 |
Quote: | so it makes more sense to drop cost to 8 and check g before taking efficiency above 12 or number above 16.
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We're talking about HE here, with it's planets half the size of normal. Checking g box with 1100 factories operated would lower the germanium cost for one maxxed planet by 1100kT - that's not even a full LF. Also, the tech was slow, so I wanted more speed AND good capacity. Speed I intended to get with more pop, capacity with good factories.
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If you pay 4 g per fac, you need to build 33% more mines, that will affect speed. Also the amount of factories you build will roughly be similar to a normal race, so the total amount of germ saved will be similar.
Now if you are right, and a HE has with same mine settings less minerals than a normal race, this makes checked for a HE even more attractive.
iztok wrote on Thu, 01 March 2007 22:05 |
Quote: | That way you save points and get more and faster facs for the same germ.
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Hrm... 30 RW points saved when going from 14/9/x to 13/8/x, gaining 4.4% in ramp-up speed and losing 7.7% on capacity doesn't seem to me like an excellent deal.
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The gain in ramp up speed is far higher, as your pop will build a lot of factories. Ask yourself, why does anyone use for non HE 12/8/16 if 13/9/16 is just 7 points more expensive?
iztok wrote on Thu, 01 March 2007 22:05 |
Quote: | e.g. 13/8/19/checked/12/3/15 is faster building facs and mines, has more germ shortterm(10 k pop produces 20% less minerals, but needs 30% less germ) and has more minerals long term.
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Costing 35RW points more like my settings, losing 3 mines (when I already complained about that) and 13.3% on capacity and saving 1045kT of germ per planet again doesn't seem to me like a good bargain. Mine efficiency 1.2 is strong, but 15 mines operated is really weak for a HE. It also puts me 35 points in the hole even for a normal game, not for that one where I had to leave 50 points unspent.
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Typo, it would be 13/8/18 then its same cost. Of course you lose 17% capacity that way, but you complained about facs being to slow and mineral problems. Then it makes especially for HE sense to reduce number of facs, maybe reduce fac cost and invest more points in mines. I just wanted to point that out, my choice is maybe not optimal, but what about 13/8/18/notchecked/12/3/20 (should cost the same)?
That means 17% less resources, but 8-10% faster ramp up(due to less resources spend on mines and pop building facs 11.25% faster) and 19% more minerals.
iztok wrote on Thu, 01 March 2007 22:05 |
Quote: | I do not understand the point, a normal race with 1700 mines on a planet gets due to depletion only 40% more or so, but has 50% more resources. So normal races should have more mineral problems .
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My race can mine in first 50 turns on my HW 12Mt minerals. Non-HE with 16 mines can mine in the same time 19Mt. When they start en-mass building they can have 55% more ships at turn 60 that I can have.
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You checked those numbers?
HE gets to mine all planets, so his non HW mines operate at higher min concs. I would guess with equal mine settings HE has still mor minerals in 2450 - but HE has normally better mine settings.
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