Home » Stars! 2.6/7 » The Academy » Gathling gun or Collodial phaser
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Re: Gathling gun or Collodial phaser |
Sat, 15 March 2003 15:05 |
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I almost always have better weapons then gatting guns or colloidals by the time I get CCs so my 1st CCs tend to have jihads. Have to warn you though, I'm a newbie to multiplayer., so take that into account when you read my posts.
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Re: Gathling gun or Collodial phaser |
Sat, 15 March 2003 15:57 |
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Colloidal battleships are much better than jihad cruisers. Sure, they take a little longer to research, but it's more than worth the effort.
The only time I'd use missile cruisers is if I need a gateable reserve fleet, or if for some really wierd reason I didn't take Construction cheap.
[Updated on: Sat, 15 March 2003 15:59] Report message to a moderator
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Re: Gathling gun or Collodial phaser |
Sat, 15 March 2003 23:05 |
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But wait, Colliodals come before Jihads, don't they.... or are they not the range 3 power 26 green ones at weapons tech 10.. not using Stars! at the moment.
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Re: Gathling gun or Collodial phaser |
Sun, 16 March 2003 16:41 |
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yucaf | | Master Chief Petty Officer | Messages: 100
Registered: December 2002 Location: India | |
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I am not really sure how to answer the poll. Which one to choose in what condition? What is important? Who is your adversary and what design is he using?
Gatling will give you the advantages of high initiative, minesweeping and also the multiple firing if you face a mixed fleet. Secondary advantage is a slightly higher rating in damage points.
However it has 2 main disadvantages: it is much more expensive and only range 3. A secondary disadvantage is that it's one more level of weapon than the colloidal. If you need to build NOW, you may not have the opportunity to do that research.
Oh, and I almost forget that since it's so boranium and ressources expensive compared to green beams, those ships might attrack first the capital missiles, even before the chaff (not tested, depends on miniaturization etc.)
I tend to use the colloidal on Cruisers, but I also have a look at the bazooka if I need an armeed fleet really early in the game. I would use the gatling more as a counter design if I know I have a speed advantage and I need higher initiative. WM can make very good use of that weapon because of that. Still it's expensive and you may not want to commit too much boranium and ressources at that stage of the game.
I use the gatling for my many cheap minesweepers once the cost has been somewhat reduced by miniaturization.
Really, the choice of a weapon instead of another is a matter of the situation rather than an absolute choice. Think for example in counterdesign. You may even have a very punctual advantage at using range0 guns in a game, but generally you will stick to range 2 and 3 beams.
I'm sure Stalwart will give you a way better illustrated and much longer answer
If you have a particular need, please expose your situation (universe, opponents, techs in game and military situation), and we'll try to help you figure out what is the best option.
My
YucaF
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Re: Gathling gun or Collodial phaser |
Wed, 19 March 2003 13:49 |
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Greetings all,
Quote: | I'm sure Stalwart will give you a way better illustrated and much longer answer
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I read and obey!
Now from my own experience one should save the Colloidal Phaser for the BB hull. Why one may ask? When dealling with range 3 beams one has to consider the initiative of fire when dealling with battle as well as movement. If you don't a Bazooka CC will take down a fleet of Colloidal CC's any day as I can garuntee they will both have the same movement, but the Bazooka's will shoot first EVERY time, regardless of range.
Also, if you are considering an early attack fleet the cost of Colloidals will hurt you majorly. Boranium may not be a problem, but the resource cost WILL. You need to have a good 20-30 CC's early enough to take out your enemy before they start building their counters, so having a cheaper and more efficient laser to put on your Cruisers will definately help you.
Now the Gattling design I like to reserve for Basic DD's or a special ops CC, or for a pain in the but Gattling Rogue design. Reason for this is purely for the fact that it has _enough_ armor to take mine hits, and since gattlings are so expensive, I don't need to build them in large quantities. Gattlings are nice indeed, they shoot first, they sweep HUGE amount of mines, and their damage is extremely high compared to others, AND hits multiple targets all at the same amount of damage. All nice and dandy but the cost for both Bor, Resources, and the WEIGHT of the item itself can really hamper you ability to actually USE the design. Now if you are playing against a AR it might come in handy as a Kill Starbase fleet that uses it's multiple targeting to hit not only the starbase but also other ships that come into range without loosing its effectiveness.
With all this in mind let me introduce to you all some of the designs I have seen used in a number of my games as well as some designs I have come up with myself:
Talon:
FF, 3xBazooka, 2xBest shield (Can work with tech 0 shields), DLL7
Porpose: Good early Mass produced Horde design. WM's can use the fule mizer and can STILL get .25 faster movement than the DLL7 design. When built in large enough numbers can actually take down cruisers even though they get the first shot. Horde is the idea here.
Disadvantage: High Accuracy Torps and Cap Missles
Time Frame: 2415-2420 (Though I once got this design by 2413, good old lucky number 13 )
BlackJack:
FF, 1xBlackjack, 2xBest Shield, DLL7
Porpose: This design can be built around 2415 and be put into a fleet of about 60-120 and sent all over the place. Very deadly design as they move last, meaning that no matter where your enemy moves, you still get a chance to move in and shoot. Very nasty.
Disadvantage: Same as Talon Design and the following ship design
Time Frame: 2415-2420
Pincer:
FF, 3xYak Lasers, Best Shields, DLL7
Porpose: Good counter for the BlackJack as it has the same movement and is also lighter, giving it the ability to move right out of range every turn. The Blackjack wouldn't have a chance...
Time Frame: 2410-2415
Sapper:
FF, 1-3xSappers, Best Shield, Best engine (DLL7+)
Couple this with a Jihad CC design and you basically use the Sappers to move in range to take out the shields before the Jihads start shooting. Very nice if going up against a WM Horde of BC's...
Time Frame: 2420-2425
Basic Cruiser:
CC, 6x Bazooka, 4xBest Shields, 2x Best Engine
Porpose: Just a design meant to be mass produced before your enemy has a chance to counter it with a faster but less shielded design. I have also seen designs with Computers so they shoot first, but all in all it is meant to be cheap, early, and to be put into large numbers. Colloidals will fail with this design due to their lack to be mass produced early enough, the lower init (you need 2 comps to compensate, way to much cost in germ). Manuvering jet can help but if you stick to the basics and just go for the gold, this is a good way to go.
Disadvantages: Large Missle Ships, sappers, BB's, or just a bigger fleet DON'T LET THEM COUNTER!!!!
Time Frame: 2420-2430 (Set a goal for 2420 if you have to)
Jihad:
CC, 4xJihads, 3-4x Comps, 2-3 Best Shields, 2x Best Engine (Preferably a nice ramscoop, or an engine that gets it fast enough to move in range before the Sappers are gone )
Porpose: Designed to be the first deadly cap ship in the game. Though for those who play stars enough know that the BB will win hands down... so research rather than going to Weapons goes to Construction and Energy research for the following:
Time Frame: 2425-2435
Colloidal BB:
BB, 4xSappers (Wings), 16x Colloidals -or- 20xColloidals, 6 Energy Caps, Best Shields, NO ARMOR, manuvering Jet (or if you spare the resources which I don't recomend) Overthruster, And any Engine Above warp 8 (preferably warp 9).
Porpose: To be built into a fleet of lets say 5 or 10 to have the ability to take out large numbers of Jihad Cruisers or basic cruisers. The Base INIT means you will shoot first, the caps insure it will hurt when it hits, and the shear number of beams mean it is going to hurt even more. No you don't need gattlings as you have a HUGE array of range 3 beam weapons making it insignificant. Just be carefull of those sapper frigates+Jihad designs especially if you are playing a knowledgable -f WM.
Time Frame: 2435-2445
As you can see there are about 5-10 year seperations between each of these designs. When dealing with experienced players you can think of it as being 2-7 years difference if not less. That means that you have exactly that much time to build, mobilize, and have large enough numbers of one of these designs to actually get the tactic to work. Keep in mind that the early you attack the worse your bombs are going to be. So if you are playing a IS, and if you want to use the BlackJack, wait till 2420 to build a Bazooka DD design with one shield and best engine and a mini-bomber with the m-70 bombs on it. This way you have a decent enough bomber to take on a IS cheap defense build rate. The Bazooka DD is just attractive enough to take on torp hits in case they try to build a starbase with high accuracy torps, and is powerfull enough to chase down those Yak FF's. Just make sure to set your battle plans to Kill Starbase for your Blackjacks, and either Chicken or a "slower" tactic for your DD's and bombers.
Just as a tip, some Econs get each of these designs at different parts of the game. For instance, if you are playing a HG, you are pretty much saying you want to wait till Cruisers, but preferably BB era. If you are playing a -f you want to do the frigate horde or the CC horde early on, and if you are playing a QS you want to either build a huge fleet of Blackjacks early on, Have a fleet of 30 CC's by 2425, or have the ability to build BB's by 2435, and yes, QS does have the ability to get that tech that fast. Of course if you are playing a OWW you are probably thinking fleets of deadly BB's to get REALL early in the game...
Well I hope this helps, let me know if I missed anything
Thanks all for your time and best wishes,
Stalwart
"Attaining one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the pinnacle of excellence. Subjugating the enemy's army without fighting is the true pinnacle of excellence."- Sun TzuReport message to a moderator
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Re: Gathling gun or Collodial phaser |
Thu, 20 March 2003 00:16 |
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BackBlast | | | Messages: 215
Registered: February 2003 Location: A Rock | |
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Here is my 2 cents in regards to early beamer designs.
I never use Colloidal Phasers. Except possibly well into the missle phase and I've failed to get heavy blasters yet. My prefered beam is the Bazooka. It has about half the mineral cost as the gatling, and less resources. The range is identical, and the power is roughly the same. The big bonuses the gatling has over the Bazooka is the initiative (very good) and the ability to hit multiple targets (nice once in a while). I generally throw the initiative war out the window before I begin ship design. At least with my beamers I do, except for special role ships. But I want a good ship that will last me a while. So, I generally don't care about initiative. Now the ability to hit multiple targets is not that great. At range 2 you rarely have more than a single target within range. If you DO have multiple targets, your movement will generally be such as to isolate one token against yours. Single tokens are always the most powerful. If your enemy fleet is spread into multiple tokens, and you fielded a respectable numbers of Bazookas in a single token, you win, gatlings or no gatlings. Defensive powers are only amplified by the cheapened cost (larger numbers). As for a mine sweeper... Doesn't one ship generally have enough sweeping power to take out a minefield? So this point is moot in my opinion.
As for range 3... I default to range 2 designs, if someone counter designs me with a lighter, faster (or same speed) ship using range 3. Then I must change my range 2 design or switch to range 3 myself. Now I'm a fan of ram scoops, and those being lighters than their counter parts, I generally am hard to counter design in this way.
Stalwart posted a few ship specific designs for early beamer fleets. I will only comment on hulls and general uses for them.
FF
I am generally not a frigate fan. Frigates have the shortest life span of any ship hull. First, you can lose whole fleets of them to mine fields. This is a very BAD thing. Especially against a neibor SD. They become 'Chaff' class vessels as soon as missles come about, even on cruisers. They are very effective in an early game attack, before too many minefields are around, before missle ships in any reasonable quantity. One of the better anti-horde ships on defence. Light weight means you get to pick your range, which means you get to choose your weapon.
Usefulness as a mainline warship expires with missles.
DD
If you are looking for a horde ship, the DD isn't a bad way to go. It's reasonable base armor can take mine hits in numbers. Add a shield in the general slot, Bazookas for weapons. You have a ship that has a reasonable life span, can be built in large numbers for an early war fleet with the nice cheap beams.
Usefulness as a mainline warship is reasonable against small amounts of Jihads. Better get something better against Jugs or large Jihad stacks.
CC
Better than a DD, higher armor base/shielding allows for longer life. Higher attainable speed. Definatly will replace the aging DD fleets.
Usefulness as a mainline warship is Good against Jihads. Reasonable against Jugs but it gets dicey here.
BC
WM toy only. Very very good. My favorite hull in the game actually. This ship has a VERY long life span. High base armor than the cruiser for a very similar cost. Only 2 engines like the cruiser. But room for twice the toys, not to mention the movement bonus. This ship can be used up until the nubian era, and into the nubian area in the right hands (read MY hands ) BCs with Mark IV blasters can be built as soon as they are researched and for most of the game there after. I've beat Jug BBs/Heavy Blaster BBs with a stack of Bazooka BCs in my day (what a glorious battle ).
Meta Morph
A good ship, range 3 is recomended on these puppies because of the capacitors you can stack. You need less actual weapons, bringing the costs down somewhat for range 3. Excelent for counter design.
BB
Out of the scope here... I don't think I'd use Colloidal or Bazooka or Gatlings on these. Too much iron, very high cost.
Conclusion, Bazooka is a good bet.
BackBlast
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Re: Gathling gun or Collodial phaser |
Fri, 02 May 2003 11:47 |
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I like to build gatling frigates. They are cheap, like, high intiative and have great staying power as they can be used early in the game as a powerful frigate horde and later in the game as sweepers. I like ships that can be used for long periods since it saves slots.
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Re: Gathling gun or Collodial phaser |
Sat, 03 May 2003 06:29 |
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I never use frigates for sweeping.. unless in large numbers.
I wont use a ship to sweep mines unless it can take a hit from the minefield in question!!!
It just makes them a bit useless if they can't take a hit or two.
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