Home » Stars! 2.6/7 » The Bar » CLFKIAB game review (was: Border negotiations)
CLFKIAB game review (was: Border negotiations) |
Tue, 14 March 2006 21:54 |
|
|
I remember my first game talking about borders with Dogthinker. He had aggressively colonised. I had setup a logistical network so I could project power if needed.
He suggested borders based on farthest colonies. I pointed out that I was in much better position if we were going to war over issue and instead suggested based on HW locations.
If there is war, both defender and attacker may suffer, but defender will likely suffer more (as wise attacker doesn't go to war unless he has advantage).
It is easy enough to do nasty things to a guy with privateer sized colonies far from his HW and no good means to defend if meanie. If nice guy one can politely explain the situation. Easiest first target is future transports.
[Mod edit: topic renamed and moved to the Bar]
[Updated on: Mon, 20 March 2006 06:48] by Moderator
Report message to a moderator
|
|
| |
Re: Border negotiations |
Tue, 14 March 2006 22:35 |
|
|
Quote: | That iron and boranium rich colony would've lasted a LOT longer if those minerals had arrived... not a great example
|
Don't be too sure. We were carefully watching your progress, plan was to lure you in to defend it. More force could have been applied, but we were after defenders, not just the colony. We had to give you hope to get those defenders to come.
Quote: | I learned that range 0 beamers will almost never get a shot in
|
I think you remember wrong. You went in with range 1 armoured destroyers called "Clunky", so I sent in a few range 0 counterdesign destroyers called "Clunkies Girlfriend". They did a good job. I loved Straus because of the counterdesign advantage I had, I could watch you come years in advance, you couldn't watch me.
Later I think you built some range 0 cruisers but never used them when you realised how my battleship horde would first strike destroy them.
[Updated on: Tue, 14 March 2006 22:48] Report message to a moderator
|
|
|
Re: Border negotiations |
Tue, 14 March 2006 23:07 |
|
|
Well, as JOAT I could see the entire forces that you had in range, so (disregarding my misunderstanding of the effect of ship weight on ship movement in combat) you never would've lured anything in that couldn't win... I brought plenty of fuel, so had more forces moved in I could've moved back... If I hadn't accidentally unloaded all that germanium to space years before the planet would've had a full starbase, with gate, and be capable of building it's own defenders, rather than being a pop rich and developed, yet defenseless world.
I do largely agree with what you are saying - if you colonise aggressively you have to be prepared to defend your far flung colonies OR be prepared to lose them.
But that's not to say you shouldn't do it regardless - often people DON'T attack these seedling colonies, as they don't want to war so early.
As an example - in LOC I was a IS HP race ranked last, but yet still was able to form a very favourable border with a hungry JOAT (who was almost certainly in the top 3,) simply by stalling for time and 'getting there first'. He, or my other neigbour (WM) could've gobbled me up very easily but neither did so for fear of inciting the other to action. In this case my 'overexpansion' worked like a dream even though I was behind on tech, behind on warships, and behind on economy - in other words completely incapable of holding my position. Eventually I was able to get the WM race to ally with me and eventually leveraged the position to come out on top for the win.
[Updated on: Tue, 14 March 2006 23:10] Report message to a moderator
|
|
| | |
Re: Border negotiations |
Thu, 16 March 2006 00:58 |
|
|
Actually, in the game mentioned, I was the IS HP and I wasn't in last place. When the game abrubtly ended abnormally I was in 3rd place with no planets fully inhabited but some millions of colonists in ships. I never got to find out just how many resources I had up in space and, had I dropped them on my planets I may very well have been in the top spot by resource count alone after 2 or 3 years.
I also should have crushed Multilis but, being his first 'real' game and all I made freinds with him instead. Generally I hate HE neighbors since they want all my red planets (actually, I hate HE's in general) and, if I'm IS I can actually use my red planets. Regardless of what PRT I'm using I don't like to give an HE planets. Much better just to invade all their new colonies.
Ptolemy
Though we often ask how and why, we must also do to get the answers to the questions.Report message to a moderator
|
|
|
Re: Border negotiations |
Thu, 16 March 2006 10:40 |
|
|
Quote: | I also should have crushed Multilis
|
You were HP and had expensive mines so any crushing likely would have wanted help from others. I had been giving you extra good greens with factories rather than taking any away.
Had we gone to war, you were quite extended out like Dogthinker so risk you may have also been attacked by others. (My early position was more defensive)
I also had strangely enough good diplomatic terms with Dogthinker despite our war, so danger we may have quit war and allied if threatened. Perhaps it would have been you and the western powers verses me and the eastern ones.
Animals (Eric/Raindancer) had TT, so given time (and less war with us) his race would have become major power, perhaps an interesting counterbalance to the robber barons of your friends the wolves (Steve).
Report message to a moderator
|
|
|
Re: Border negotiations |
Thu, 16 March 2006 18:39 |
|
|
Ptolemy wrote on Thu, 16 March 2006 16:58 | Actually, in the game mentioned, I was the IS HP and I wasn't in last place.
|
Some confusion here - the last place IS HP I brought up was from another game, LOC (Locked in the Closet,) that I brought up as a counter example (intentional overextending leading to a win) and I was playing it.
In CLFKIAB you certainly looked to be in a decent position. Your alliance with Multilis looked unshakeable. I guess that might've lead to a win for you if your pop drops brought you up to 1st in resources. By this point, at least, your expensive mines would've been no barrier to success.
I tried to get Ptolemy to join me in fighting Multilis's HE 3i very early in the war (well, actually before the war even started.) I certainly don't think he would've survived both of us. Multilis - don't forget you were HP too, cheap mines or not
Additionally I don't think anyone else would've attacked Ptolemy had he gone to war, as his only major neighbour was the IT that dropped (I think after getting boxed in by Ptolemy's overexpansion?)
I don't think it's strange at all that Multilis and I had good diplomatic relations despite our all out war I take emotion out of my diplomacy as much as possible. Allying with Multilis would've been an excellent result for me, especially if I could get him fighting with his previous ally - I felt confident I could catch up with you in peacetime (I had massive growth in the far south) and I was getting my butt handed to me, so...
Raindancer was certainly coming into his golden age, but with no sign of the Ptolemy/Multis (+IT +SS) alliance breaking up we didn't feel we could recover unless we could break up the alliance. The IT race was definately teetering... If he had switched before giving your alliance the Nubian tech he was researching for you, then maybe Raindancer could've turned the tide, but I think it was too late for me.
Report message to a moderator
|
|
|
Re: Border negotiations |
Thu, 16 March 2006 21:36 |
|
|
Quote: | I certainly don't think he would've survived both of us... was HP too
|
It cost me 5 resources to build a factory which produced 1.5 resources (so potential for 30% growth in factory resources per turn), and unlike normal HP, terraforming didn't exist. I also had first minefields, and wasn't spread out that much.
Ptol, Mits (IT guy below him), and Wolves (SS below both) all had almost same hab requirements so there was a danger to him of attack. Mits was starved for greens, and had first jihads. I had few planets others wanted.
The guy who took over Mits was friendly because Wolves, Ptol and I were all friendly to each other and strong so war seemed unwinable, may have been different if Ptol was weakenned from fighting me. As well, risk Eric (Animals) may have jumped in on other side of war if you 2 ganged up on me.
An HE is not so easy to kill because he has so many planets to hit, it takes a while. No big deal to even lose HW, because every other planet is also 100% hab and minerals are not a problem.
You still had spartins to deal with, who you attacked early but if nothing else as IT were a gate danger to your backside.
[Updated on: Thu, 16 March 2006 21:43] Report message to a moderator
|
|
| |
Re: Border negotiations |
Thu, 16 March 2006 22:47 |
|
|
Quote: | low-growth HE your population growth was sluggish
|
12% growth at all planets, compared to others who have to travel farther to what are often below 66% greens...
You chose a really low growth JOAT so your pop growth was more sluggish.
Quote: | was not an example of overexpansion
|
Both you and Ptol spread very aggressively that game. Others such as first Mits guy allowed the expansion.
In other game you mention, Pickle Pea knows he made a mistake in what he allowed.
In Trans game, Ptol was aggressive over a certain green, which made my neighbour Ken Mitchell more hostile to him, which in turn helped lead Goober to conclusion he could get away with a nasty backstab.
[Updated on: Thu, 16 March 2006 22:49] Report message to a moderator
|
|
|
Re: Border negotiations |
Fri, 17 March 2006 00:05 |
|
|
multilis wrote on Fri, 17 March 2006 14:47 |
Quote: | low-growth HE your population growth was sluggish
|
12% growth at all planets, compared to others who have to travel farther to what are often below 66% greens...
You chose a really low growth JOAT so your pop growth was more sluggish.
|
12% is sluggish... I was comparing your growth to the other races, in particular the IS HP next door.
I already pointed out my race had better resource production per unit of population, thanks to QS pop eff. Our population growth were both bad - mine was just not even across my worlds... All my breeders, my high greens, had better growth and up to 240% of the population total. I don't know if you were using all your worlds as breeders or not so it's hard to compare. With better resource settings and comparable growth I had a definate resource advantage... Have you forgotten how long I lead you for? It's only when the bombing and packeting took it's toll that I fell behind...
Anyway...
My point is that overexpanding as a strategy is only a bad thing if someone pulls you up on it. If they don't, it's a _huge_ advantage. It's the cheapest territory you'll ever find.
I guess it depends exactly what you mean when you say 'overexpansion', if you read it as "expand so much you lose", then obviously it is a tautology to say it is a bad move, proved by it's own defination so is meaningless to debate.
If it means "expand so much you can't defend it all" it is only a bad move if you get called on it AND in the process you lose _more_ than you gained. For example in a situation where you are 500ly from your neighbour you might intentionally expand to 400ly, where you only hope to keep 300ly. The rest is a buffer zone, giving you warning, depth of defense, and something you could give up to avoid conflict.
The opposite of 'overexpansion' - the 'turtle approach' - has you intentionally take less ground than your neighbours, secure in the knowledge you can defend it all. Defend it until your neighbours grow powerfull with all that extra territory, that is...
Sometimes there may be a little middle ground between the strategies, where you are able to expand beyond your 'rightfull' territory, but still be capable of defending it all... But I'd rather push on a little further myself, gamble a little to win big. It doesn't cost much to expand, you just have to have the guts to do it. If someone attacks you and you can't stop them before they raze some major worlds, then you had lost anyway. If you stop them before they raze anything but minor worlds, then it paid off, probably cost them more than it cost you.
Report message to a moderator
|
|
|
Re: Border negotiations |
Fri, 17 March 2006 00:30 |
|
|
Quote: | ahead in resources for a long time
|
I managed to take top spot before 2440 which is suprisingly good for an HE, likely caused by +f requirement in race settings. HE strength early on is free resources rather than total ones.
Quote: | All my breeders, my high greens, had better growth and up to 240% of the population total
|
With your 14% growth rate you would need average of 85% greens to compete on growth. What % of your planets were good greens? (HE of course has 100% good greens).
Quote: | With better resource settings and comparable growth I had a definate resource advantage
|
No..., how much did your factories cost? Did you also have to spend on terraforming? Important number is free resources.
I was also supplying germ and factoried up worlds to Ptol (which cut into growth). I still managed 26K resources by 2450.
Given you started a war with spartins before, and other players were competing for your greens, I don't think I would have been crushed. Died eventually, perhaps but not crushed easily.
Quote: | razing only minor worlds... probably cost them more than it cost you
|
If so, that may be reflection on flaws in stategy of the attacker rather than what is possible. One can often wage war by spending a little but forcing defender to respond with more, thus wearing him down.
[Updated on: Fri, 17 March 2006 00:53] Report message to a moderator
|
|
|
Re: Border negotiations |
Fri, 17 March 2006 00:38 |
|
|
multilis wrote on Fri, 17 March 2006 16:30 |
Quote: | All my breeders, my high greens, had better growth and up to 240% of the population total
|
With your 14% growth rate you would need average of 85% greens to compete on growth. What % of your planets were good greens? (HE of course has 100% good greens).
Quote: | With better resource settings and comparable growth I had a definate resource advantage
|
No..., how much did your factories cost? Did you also have to spend on terraforming? Important number is free resources.
Unlike you, I was also supplying germ and factoried up worlds to other players (which cut into growth). I still managed 26K resources by 2450.
|
Well, I was ahead in resources for a long time, which is empirical evidence that is convincing enough for me. I'm not arguing that 3i HE is not a good race, it's a classic monster race. Not news to anyone. I'm just saying you couldn't have taken us both on at once, had it gone that way.
This is also way off topic.
Report message to a moderator
|
|
|
Re: Border negotiations |
Fri, 17 March 2006 00:42 |
|
|
multilis wrote on Fri, 17 March 2006 16:30 |
Quote: | razing only minor worlds... probably cost them more than it cost you
|
If so, that may be reflection on flaws in stategy of the attacker rather than what is possible. One can often wage war by spending a little but forcing defender to respond with more, thus wearing him down.
|
The tactics used in any war is a seperate topic, IMHO. Feeble race can defeat monster, played right...
It's very hard to argue that depth of defence is a disadvantage.
Report message to a moderator
|
|
|
Re: Border negotiations |
Fri, 17 March 2006 16:39 |
|
|
Border negotiations between Ptol and I in CFLKIAB partially went well because alternative was paranoia that would hurt us both, we started 211ly away from each other.
Quote: | I'm just saying you couldn't have taken us both on at once
|
All that I have said is I probably wouldn't be crushed. But you have gotten my curiousity up a bit.
Supposing I have control of my race and spartins, and you each have control of your respective races, and no one else submits... what turn would you want to turn back time to, for gang up on me? (Only fair we also have each other's race designs as well) We would need some sort of backup of the hst file, not sure if that still exists.
I'll throw another option at you. Would either you or Ptol want to duel in small universe with otherwise same settings with your same race design verses mine? You take the empirical evidence of being ahead in score as important, Ptol talks normally crushing a race like mine. Duel is often over by 2450 which means by your evidence you should be ahead in power for most of game.
[Updated on: Fri, 17 March 2006 17:09] Report message to a moderator
|
|
| | |
Re: Border negotiations |
Mon, 20 March 2006 07:10 |
|
|
multilis wrote on Sat, 18 March 2006 08:39 | Supposing I have control of my race and spartins, and you each have control of your respective races, and no one else submits... what turn would you want to turn back time to, for gang up on me? (Only fair we also have each other's race designs as well) We would need some sort of backup of the hst file, not sure if that still exists.
|
I don't think SAH holds the files after the game is removed. I probably still have the original version, but that'd be worse than starting again.
Quote: | I'll throw another option at you. Would either you or Ptol want to duel in small universe with otherwise same settings with your same race design verses mine? You take the empirical evidence of being ahead in score as important, Ptol talks normally crushing a race like mine. Duel is often over by 2450 which means by your evidence you should be ahead in power for most of game.
|
If you are suggesting taking your race against both Ptolemy's and my race simultaneously, then I'm up for it if he is
If you mean 1on1, that doesn't really prove anything as I wasn't trying to argue that my race would've beaten yours 1on1.
Report message to a moderator
|
|
| |
Re: Border negotiations |
Mon, 20 March 2006 10:05 |
|
|
Quote: | If you are suggesting taking your race against both Ptolemy's and my race simultaneously, then I'm up for it if he is
|
How about spartins? Do you have their race design? Do I get them also on my side if battling 2 of you? (In original you were at war, and guy was annoyed enough to care only about hurting you and not about winning)
Report message to a moderator
|
|
| |
Re: Border negotiations |
Mon, 20 March 2006 11:46 |
|
|
Maybe you'll get in trouble now for going off topic, now that we've switched from border discussions to CFLKIAB topic.
There is a saying of walk softly but carry a big stick that I think fits early diplomacy/border negotiations. Sometimes you need to gently explain you do have a big stick if needed to get better/more profitable cooperation.
Quote: | stardock or orbital fort
|
At times a small minefield or escorting destroyer can also help.
IMO as far as securing territory, first issue is transportation. Cheap/early man-jet destroyer can take out both scouts and loaded privateers before colony is established or prevent upgrading colony.
For your stardock or orbital fort, a counter is picking the ideal time as far as they guy who's territory who is closer goes.
An ideal time might be created by rushing to W10 (for also terraforming tech), then suprise using the advantage of delta torps (or man-jet range 2 cruisers) to improve negotiating power. In jihad era, these ships plus chaff (to compensate for poor shields) plus 100/250 gates can compete in a pinch.
If you get yourself a war (like Dogthinker did in CFLKIAB), then you risk other powers also atacking your far flung holdings. If it was not for him having Straus near me in that game, I wouldn't have been able to ecconomically attack early, would have had to wait till Spartins and I got close enough that I could help him.
Early in that game, a planet in the middle of the universe (I think it was timbukto) had a suprising effect on negotiations. Dogthinker I think grabbed it but both Ptol and Wolves (Steve) desired it, it helped cement some diplomacy that Dogthinker never heard but hurt him longer term. Wolves were in opposite corner of universe.
[Updated on: Mon, 20 March 2006 19:07] Report message to a moderator
|
|
|
Re: Border negotiations |
Tue, 13 June 2006 23:33 |
|
Ron | | Commander Forum Administrator Stars! AutoHost Administrator | Messages: 1231
Registered: October 2002 Location: Collegedale, TN | |
|
Micha wrote on Mon, 20 March 2006 07:56 |
Dogthinkers wrote on Mon, 20 March 2006 13:10 |
multilis wrote on Sat, 18 March 2006 08:39 | Supposing I have control of my race and spartins, and you each have control of your respective races, and no one else submits... what turn would you want to turn back time to, for gang up on me? (Only fair we also have each other's race designs as well) We would need some sort of backup of the hst file, not sure if that still exists.
|
I don't think SAH holds the files after the game is removed. I probably still have the original version, but that'd be worse than starting again.
|
AH holds upto 5 year backup (restore possible), but once the game is removed AFAIK all data is gone.
mch
|
Actually, I archive all games I remove from the system (unless the game ended real early)
Ron Miller
Stars! AutoHostReport message to a moderator
|
|
|
Goto Forum:
Current Time: Thu May 23 10:30:22 EDT 2024
|