Home » Primary Racial Traits » HE » Meta-morph
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Re: Meta-morph |
Tue, 18 February 2003 03:28 |
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Metamorph vs Cruisers....
Now lets be boting and assume top level tech....
Metamorph
3x Galaxy scoop
8x Armageddon middiles
4x Battle Nexi
4x Complete phase sheild
1X Super latanium (yes I know no-one uses generally).
586 / 178 / 285 minerals
450 resources
2000 armour
2000 sheilds
Cruiser
2x Galaxy scoop
6x Armageddon
2x Nexi
2x Complete phase
411 / 132 / 177 minerals
233 resources
700 armour
1000 sheilds.
OK so lets break this down a bit....
Cruisers are better per resource and only lose out on armour by 600dp but they pack 4 more missiles.... They do however have a lower accuracy
Per mineral the Metamorph is best. For a cruiser to compete at this level you need 2 per metamorph... which is heavy ironium cost.
Since most HE races don't have to worry about minerals but DO have to worry about resources then the Cruiser is probably best.
The metamorph can also carry troops which is handy. But at the same time doing this is VERY dumb. Cruisers + Freighters vs Metamorphs in a fight.... if say half the cruisers survive all the freighters do, if half the metamorphs survive half the population is dead too. This is bad.
I suppose Cruisers vs Metamorph is actually very close, but since I'm a player who takes RS everytime I much prefer the cruiser because it's got more base armour.
And number of posts has little to do with rank. It's about quality of post because Ron (bless his cotton socks) reads EVERYTHING and decides to award points on how good the posts are.
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Re: Meta-morph |
Tue, 18 February 2003 04:36 |
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I think you comparison is flawed because of the increased components mounted on the Meta Morph. If you only mount the components that would fit on a cruiser(silly idea I know) the cost difference is a mere handful of resources and minerals more and an extra engine. However this is rarely ever done and the ability to mount the extra components (in your example) grants 33% more firepower at 225% the accuracy with twice the sheilds and trice armour without the need for more ships. True the resources are almost double but these are almost all spent on superior firepower and much of that can be regained by choosing a lesser armour and matching the cruisers armour rather than tripling it...even the next lesser armour gives a 60 point return.
The contention I've generally seen touted is initiative..but with your specs the meta morph leads the cruiser 14-11.
My choice would definately be the Meta-morph.
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Re: Meta-morph |
Tue, 18 February 2003 12:32 |
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johng316 | | Chief Warrant Officer 3 | Messages: 177
Registered: November 2002 Location: Indiana, USA | |
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In the early stages of the game when cruisers and MMs are newly available, the Cruiser is GENERALLY the more cost-effective and combat-effective option. The initiative of the MM hull is a problem in this era.
At max tech, the cost issues are minimized because of the miniaturization of the hull cost, but who really fields front-line MMs and Cruisers in great numbers at this stage of the game? Usually, you see chaff, BBs, Nubians, and DNs.
The MM is extremely useful as a counter-design platform in the early game and even in the BB era. You can design one to take out bombers with first-shot capability. You can design one that's 98% cloaked that will lay mines or sweep (incredibly effective). In the mid-game, you can sweep almost any minefield back to 16 LY without detection, and you can lay mines behind the attacking enemy ships, cutting off their route of escape. If you're facing a cloaked enemy, you can design Anti-cloak scanning platforms loaded with your best scanners. If you're facing a FF horde, the MM with Delta torps in the early game will mow them down like grass.
The usefulness of the MM depends on the situation, but in general, I think it is FAR more valuable as an auxiliary unit than a front-line combat ship. I'd take cruisers in most situations.
John G
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Re: Meta-morph |
Tue, 18 February 2003 14:44 |
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Crusader | | Officer Cadet 2nd Year | Messages: 233
Registered: January 2003 Location: Dixie Land | |
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Ron wrote on Tue, 18 February 2003 09:59 |
Bzzt, wrong! Top right of the page, click on the FAQ link and read the General Board section on "What are these military ranks I see assigned to users?"
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Then I shall revert to my 1st reason for posting. I like to hear myself think out loud. What? Did I say that out loud?
Shame on me.
Well, I don't have Stars! loaded on this system (being as how I am at work and attempting to clean up a GroupWise user move from old to new post office (4 bad from 1,000 moved - not bad), but I can give you a general answer by reviewing the previous posts.
One poster suggested looking at the situation with max tech. Doesn't seem to be a realistic way of looking at the situation. We would be looking at the cruiser/early BB era of a game, not the nubian age, IMHO.
If I had Stars! with me and loaded up, I could even do some testbedding to get some numbers to crunch down and discover which answer is best via simple math, right? Well, sort of. It all falls back on the situation a player discovers himself/herself in. Again, IMHO.
I once played against a HE opponent who caught me by surprise with a BB-killing MM (I wish I could remember the configurations, but I did not save the game info). It did cause some early damage to me, but it was a temp situation that did not alter the flow of the war. He still lost fleets and worlds too rapidly to alter the situation. Seems to me that he might would have done better to continue research to BB tech and met me with those. OFC, his situation may have not permitted him the luxury.
I have no doubt that by adding computers, a MM can be given more initiative than a comparable CC, but can a player always be able to afford the cost in germ? Also, do addition resources and minerals required to create a MM capable of taking on a CC equals a cost-effective solution, when compared to the amount of fighting power purchased? These are typically the kind of questions that I ask myself concerning using utility hulls to create fighting ships. I often play SS, and have played that PRT more often than any other single PRT, but I have not found a situation where the Rogue hull can be made into a cost-effective CC counterdesign. OFC, that may not be a fair comparison with the MM hull.
Ask yourself this question when designing a MM hull to counter a CC hull. If the MM hull costs twice as much, can it take out 2 or more CC's? If not, it isn't cost effective. If you have to build 2 to take out 2 CC's, then, in my opinion, your race design had better leave you one rich dude in your universe, cause your gonna need all that wealth that you can muster.
Just one man's opinion, for what it's worth.
Your humble servant,
The Crusader
[Updated on: Tue, 18 February 2003 14:45]
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Re: Meta-morph |
Tue, 18 February 2003 16:59 |
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OK i stated max tech because I couldn't be bothered to set up the test bed!!! lol.
And Ron was a little slow off the block... I did mention it my post that it makes no difference....
Granted I have posted rather a lot..............................
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Re: Meta-morph |
Wed, 19 February 2003 03:28 |
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zoid | | Ensign | Messages: 348
Registered: December 2002 Location: Murray, KY - USA | |
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In my opinion it's not even fair to compare the MM to the CR like this. It's like asking which is better, an apple or an orange. But so long as we are doing this, for what it's worth I'll take the MM. I'll show you why.
Filling up the slots and comparing the costs doesn't cover all the bases. What is the value of firing first? What is the cost of attrition, which is not factored into your cost comparisons? The metamorph hull's versatility will allow you to weight these factors to your best advantage. What is the value of surprise? That alone is impossible to calculate. With the Metamorph, you can cloak and still have a functioning missile-weapons platform that outperforms any cruiser on a one for one basis.
Without regard to the unfairness of such a comparison, I'll humbly submit one and make it as "fair" as possible for the cruiser, in the time when a MM is most likely to be used as a CR substitute. Enter the Jihads; we'll assume everyone is at tech level 12 or under in all fields.
ZOID METAMORPH
mineral cost: 319, 105, 238 (Total 662)
resource cost: 383
Armor: 775
Shielding: 200
Armament: jihad x8
Super Battle Computers x4, Super Stealth Cloaks x2 (72% cloaked)
ANTI-ZOID CRUISER
mineral cost: 220, 72, 137 (Total 429)
resource cost: 219
Armor: 700
Shielding: 200
Armament: jihad x6
Super Battle Computers x2
Cost Ratio of Metamorph per Cruiser: minerals = 1.55, resources = 1.74
Resource-based Ship-building Ratio > 4/7
Fleet sizes for comparison are then 4 MM's vs 7 CR's.
I ran four fights between 4 such metamorphs and 7 such cruisers. Each side won and lost two battles. The Zoid forces left the battlefields with 4 metamorphs, and the Anti-Zoid forces left with 8 cruisers. I ran four more battles with 4 times the number, and this time it was more consistant. In each case, the Anti-Zoid cruisers lost half of their number, but the Zoid metamorphs were defeated.
My tests gave the cruisers every benefit. I rounded my numbers calculated for comparison upward, and then the
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I'M NOT AN EXPERT AND I'M OFTEN PROVEN WRONG. TAKE THAT INTO CONSIDERATION WHEN YOU READ MY POSTS.
Math? Ummm, sure! I do FREESTYLE math.Report message to a moderator
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Re: Meta-morph |
Thu, 20 February 2003 03:04 |
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BackBlast | | | Messages: 215
Registered: February 2003 Location: A Rock | |
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I'll start by saying I like HE. I'm a newbie in terms of my stars! playing experience. I'm in my first PBEM game, I'm also playing HE. Though I have done much analysis in the art of logistics and ship design.
The first problem that I see with the comparisons so far are the focuses on base armor and initiative. Let us look at the strengths of each hull. Cruiser has indeed higher initiative (5 vs 2), and a slightly higher base armor (700 vs 500). The cruiser also only get 2 elect/mec slots and 2 general slots as opposed to the versatile Meta Morph. This seems somewhat akin to BB vs Nubian, though a slightly less important (one race gets Metas) and different question (ever so slightly). Nubians get their advantage from not the number of weapons, but from defensive systems and their price. So lets make all out war vehicles with both of them.
I'm going to assume tech 12 everything. For simplicity, I will have no miniturization (I don't want to make a test bed with exactly tech 12 everywhere, heh).
We'll start with missles since everyone is oddly fond of them... (I think this design was used in an earlier post)
Jihad CC:
2x Alpha 8
2x SBC
2x Bear
6x Jihad
700 armor, 200 shields
302 I 83 B 126 G 263 R
Jihad MM:
3x Alpha 8
4x SBC
3x Bear
2x J 20
5x Jihad
500 armor, 300 shields
296 I 77 B 188 G 389 R
So we can now decide what we want to make the limiting factor. In the particular era it would probably be resources for an HE who gets to make this choice. 263/389 is roughly equal to 6/9. So 9 cruisers 263*9 = 2367 R and 9 Metas 389*2334 R. 2 runs gives me the same results, 6 Metas at 33-36% damage, and 9 dead cruisers. Don't even get my started on how much more Iron the CCs are using. More computers would have helped the design though. Germ cost is about at the same proportions as the resources. The important thing that swings things the Metas way is the jamming in this scenario. I like only having 5 jihads in the 8 slot to balance iron cost for the defences available
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Re: Meta-morph |
Thu, 20 February 2003 03:34 |
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The meta will always be a better beamer than the cruiser. Just slap the 20% capacitor in that general 8 slot and you're laughing all the way to the bank.
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Re: Meta-morph |
Thu, 20 February 2003 10:42 |
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johng316 | | Chief Warrant Officer 3 | Messages: 177
Registered: November 2002 Location: Indiana, USA | |
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freakyboy wrote on Thu, 20 February 2003 03:34 | The meta will always be a better beamer than the cruiser. Just slap the 20% capacitor in that general 8 slot and you're laughing all the way to the bank.
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Freaky, the benefit you receive from capacitors is capped at a 250% increase in beam efficiency. More than 5 flux capacitors is a waste.
1.2 * 1.2 * 1.2 * 1.2 * 1.2 = 2.49 (249%)
I'll add some additional comments to the ongoing comparisons.
IMO, comparing an early Jihad CC to an early Jihad MM is a bit of a waste of breath. I understand what you're trying to do with an "academic" discussion, but both of these designs are so vulnerable to obsolescence I think most wise players would build them only in very limited numbers. In most games, the "jihad cruiser" era is very short. As soon as Jihad BBs come on the scene, especially with SBCs, both the Jihad cruiser and the Jihad MM (without jamming and limited shields/armor) will be toast.
Of course, every game and every situation calls for different tactics and ship designs, so these are "in general" comments. There are always situations where conventional wisdom flies out the window.
The largest problem with the MM as a beamer is weight. It is almost always heavier than comparable cruisers, so this almost begs for Range 3 beams. Range 3 beams are very costly in minerals and resources, AND they compound the MM's initiaive problem.
There are situations where the MM is a better front-line combat ship, but I believe those are windows of opportunity, and they tend to be brief. This can be useful if you are trying to destroy a large enemy investment with a comparatively lower investment. However, most of these designs are a temporary solution at best designed for a specific combat mission.
Here are some ideas for reasonably early MM designs that are useful throughout the game over the long term:
Sapper MM:
8 X Best Sapper
4 X Capacitor or Flux
Round out the rest of the slots with good engines, jets or overth
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Re: Meta-morph |
Thu, 20 February 2003 16:13 |
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OK - slap on 8 beam weapons, 5 capacitors (the 20%) kind and 4 slots of whatever else (sheilds maybe???) and then the MM is WAY better than the cruiser.
I guess a good idea might be a game of all HE's and only coloniser hulls, miners, bombers and MM's are allowed!!!! tee hee.
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Re: Meta-morph |
Thu, 20 February 2003 18:25 |
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johng316 | | Chief Warrant Officer 3 | Messages: 177
Registered: November 2002 Location: Indiana, USA | |
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Hi Freaky,
An interesting idea, and I would encourage you to test it out a bit.
Thinking out loud.... please indulge me a bit..... While your suggested design has lots of nice firepower (much more than the CA), you still run into weight and initiative problems. you can compensate for initiative by putting on a couple of SBCs, but that increases your resources cost quite a bit.
If you take gattlings (range 2), I'll take a range 3 beam on a much lighter ship. If you take range 3 beams, I can take Range 3 or Range 2 on the Cruiser, get first shot, and (if I take Range 2), have significantly lower cost. If you take range 2, I take range 3, and you never get a shot off because of your weight.
Heavy Blaster MM
MM Hull (500 Armor)
8 Heavy Blasters (Total initiative 7)
5 Flux Capacitors (249% increase in beam strength)
4 Gorilla Shields (700 shields)
Tech 9 Ram Scoop
Total cost (assuming no miniaturization):
Resources: 403
Iron: 85
Bora: 224
Germ: 112
Mass: 167
Mark IV Blaster CA (HE, same tech levels)
CA Hull (700 Armor)
4 Mark IV Blasters (total initiative 12)
2 Tech 15 Sappers (total initiative of 19)
2 Flux Capacitors (144% increase in beams)
2 Gorilla Shields (350 Shields)
Tech 9 Ram Scoops
Total cost (assuming no miniaturization):
Resources: 245
Iron: 60
Bora: 61
Germ: 72
Mass: 142
On a resource expenditure basis, I can buy 1.6 cruisers for every MM the other guy buys. If you don't have ramscoops, the 3 engines on the MM will compound the resource cost and weight issues.
1 MM has 20 virtual heavy blasters (8 * 2.49). 500 Armor and 700 shields.
1.6 CAs have 9.2 virtual Mark IV (4 * 1.44 * 1.6), PLUS 4.6 Sappers (2 * 1.44 * 1.6). 1.6 CAs also get 1120 armor and 560 shields.
The CAs will have first shot, which will help. The MM is more vulnerable to torpedos with only 500 armor, and against the sappers, the resource-equivalent MM stack will probably lose his shields faster and suffer attrition a round or two before the CA stack does (though I have not tested this).
If I'm HE, I'm building cruisers for front-line combat duty, but that's just my opinion. Others may have a different preference, and that's OK, as long as you're my enemy.
John G
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Re: Meta-morph |
Fri, 21 February 2003 00:56 |
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zoid | | Ensign | Messages: 348
Registered: December 2002 Location: Murray, KY - USA | |
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johng316 wrote on Thu, 20 February 2003 07:42 | Sapper MM:
8 X Best Sapper
4 X Capacitor or Flux
Round out the rest of the slots with good engines, jets or overthrusters, and shields. These ships need to be fast and defense is a lesser concern. Use enough of these to drop the shields of the enemy beamers before they get a shot off. The initiative of the weapon helps to overcome the low init of the hull. Don't expect these units to survive long.
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Don't expect them to do anything either, unless you put some kind of weapon that does actual damage on them. If I remember correctly, a ship equipped with only sapper weapons will not engage. It's been a long time for me, but it seems like I learned that one the hard way - Made a bunch of frigates or something with only pulse sapper weapons and they acted like unarmed ships. (Has anyone tried this lately? I may not remember correctly, or it might have been something I tried with v2.6 or v2.6b that was fixed later.)
I agree with the MM minelayer and minesweeper designs; I use those exact designs all the time. But since The Taubat was asking specifically about MM's compared to CR's, I didn't bother with mentioning other roles the MM could fill.
As for the mention of obsolete jihad ships, well, sometimes people get jihads and then they get fiesty. In fact, jihad technology is the breakthrough that turns tensions into war in every game I've been in, so I can't relate to those who talk about stalling warship production until omega nubian or even doomsday BB tech arrives - I've never seen that kind of game. If you're my hostile or otherwise scary neighbor you will field as many jihad warships as you can, or you might never get the chance to make anything better. What do I care about obsolescence? I have ultimate recycling. Scrap one at a time per base and I get almost everything back that I put into it in the first place, including resources. Better to have them than not.
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I'M NOT AN EXPERT AND I'M OFTEN PROVEN WRONG. TAKE THAT INTO CONSIDERATION WHEN YOU READ MY POSTS.
Math? Ummm, sure! I do FREESTYLE math.Report message to a moderator
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Re: Meta-morph |
Fri, 21 February 2003 01:06 |
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zoid | | Ensign | Messages: 348
Registered: December 2002 Location: Murray, KY - USA | |
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Hetzer wrote on Wed, 19 February 2003 12:05 | There seems to be enough interest in HE stuff that I was wondering if an all HE game might have any interest to anyone.
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Not me. I've sworn off of HE; As soon as I finish the game I'm playing an HE in, I'm off the HE for good.
And playing an all HE game would take the fun out of being an HE, for me. I like the 3% tri-immune variety, and in a game like this the universe size would likely be medium-sized at best, and someone if not everyone would play a high growth -f design and ruin all my fun. Heck, I'd be dead before it ever got good! My 3% tri-immune needs lots of space and 900 years or so to get going. As for playing the aforementioned HG -f HE, that just doesn't appeal to me.
I'M NOT AN EXPERT AND I'M OFTEN PROVEN WRONG. TAKE THAT INTO CONSIDERATION WHEN YOU READ MY POSTS.
Math? Ummm, sure! I do FREESTYLE math.Report message to a moderator
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Re: Meta-morph |
Sat, 22 February 2003 11:59 |
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yucaf | | Master Chief Petty Officer | Messages: 100
Registered: December 2002 Location: India | |
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zoid wrote on Fri, 21 February 2003 00:56 |
Don't expect them to do anything either, unless you put some kind of weapon that does actual damage on them. If I remember correctly, a ship equipped with only sapper weapons will not engage. It's been a long time for me, but it seems like I learned that one the hard way - Made a bunch of frigates or something with only pulse sapper weapons and they acted like unarmed ships. (Has anyone tried this lately? I may not remember correctly, or it might have been something I tried with v2.6 or v2.6b that was fixed later.)
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I don't know of previous versions, but with i and j patches, your sappers ships ARE warships . They will engage unless your ennemy has no shield to start with.
However, when I get the BB hull, I almost never build sapper only ships. Of course it depends on the situation. I had once an enemy in the north using shielded CC's and another in the south building armor only CC's. So I did not want to build anything useless to fight in the south, especially because my ressources were tight and I would engage 2 ennemies at the same time. I had sapper-only ships to help the jihads-BB in the north, otherwise I would have built BB with a mix of beams (16) and sappers (4 in the rear slots)
FWIW,
YucaF
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Re: Meta-morph |
Tue, 16 December 2003 19:12 |
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Metamorph has more slots for things like jammers, beam deflectors, battle computers, flux capacitors.
Metamorphs can be paired with other cheaper ships (flak, etc) that attract fire first.
Battle computers can be put on beamers to give them first shot if that is desired.
And metamorphs have an 8 slot that can be filled with weapons. The larger the slot, the more actual kills verses just damaging ships in the stack.
Metamorph=flexible counterdesign and enemy will have trouble guessing what the design is till it is too late.
For example a metamorph full of jammers, delta torps or beamers and enough shields might have some fun with jihad attackers.
Or a metamorph can be filled with gattlings, flux capacitors and overthrusters for certain types of attacks.
And it doesn't hurt that the battle salvage can be carried home easy.
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