Home » Stars! 2.6/7 » The Bar » New Game idea: selective lowtech on medium map
| New Game idea: selective lowtech on medium map |
Sat, 06 November 2004 19:42  |
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 Tuna-Fish |
 | Crewman 3rd Class |
Messages: 6
Registered: December 2003
Location: Finland | |
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I've always been pissed by that when the really late game comes around practically everyone uses the same ships, with no actual diversity. A while ago, I stumbled upon a floppy that had an old stars!-game save from more than half a decade ago, from times when I still played with the sw version (the one that you could play as long as you wanted but no tech over 10). When I walked longer on the memory lane, what struck me first was how diverse all players were, both in race and ship designs, and in just general tactics.
So i thought about setting a game with such rules that normal basic tactics and stuff doesn't work, and with low-tech tech caps on top of it.
The problem is, I am sure that I dont want it to be just hard cap at 10, but I can't really decide what it will be. The goal in the caps is to
1. stir up the game by ruining present tactics, making prt's different than they usually are.
2. let all PRT's get their own specialty that they can do, and others cant.
3. amplify the strenght of the MT, just to make it more fun.
4. Strenghten strategical defence so that wars might for once be for just those border worlds, instead of war invariably ending in total defeat of one side.
Also, it wont be the thing for overcompetitive players, but just something to have a bit of fun.
Right now, I'm thinking of the following:
NO IFE allowed in game, just because for most players it's one of the too obvious choises.
Slow tech (so little total stuff to research, might as well make it last a little longer)
NO TT, because one of the later rules would make it too good of a choice.
And no player is ever allowed to build a ship hull, or place a component on a hull, that exceeds one of the following levels:
Energy 13
Weapons 11
Construction 11
Propulsion 11
Electronics 12
Biotech 20
It is, however, ok and expected to research more than those levels for miniaturization, planet scanners and defences, and terraforming.
Also, to help ar's and defence on general, you can build any starbase hull, even death star. (thus making ar the expert on defence...)
Now, how did I come up with those limits?
Energy: High enough to allow mt shield, low enough to cut out gorillas. Also, allows driver 9, should someone be brave enough to try pp.
Weapons: Cuts out the most powerful weapon of the low-tech area, leaving a group where each weapon has it's uses, upsides and downsides. Also, makes easy starbasekilling impossible: deltas on a ship have range 4, colloidals on a base are r4 too... You are going to take casualties no matter what.
Const: To cut out battleships, and neutronium (not that anyone uses it anyway), leaving the variety of prt-specific armor on the top of the heap. The top shiphulls are Battle cruiser, cruiser and meta morph. Wonder if galleon can be used for anyhting productive...
Propulsion: to make NRSE an interesting choice: Either you accept that you will never be able to move w10 without losses, or that all your engines are hideously expensive. Is strategical mobility worht that much?
Electronics: Now this one is a mouthful. 1st, I am 100% sure that it will be under 14, just to make cloaking a more viable option. But will that level 12 help SS too much? Opinions please.
Biotech: I long pondered making anti-matter torp fair game, just to once see people enjoying getting it. But, I think it would simply be too good.
Now also, I'm at loss trying to figure out some good winning conditions. They are not all THAT important after all, considering the whole game is bit tongue in-cheek, but it still would be cool to have something that will spark some conflict, just so players wont just fortify and forget about the existence of each other.
Comments, ideas, critic? would you play it?
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| Re: New Game idea: selective lowtech on medium map |
Sun, 07 November 2004 04:57  |
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| wizard |
 | Officer Cadet 3rd Year |
Messages: 279
Registered: January 2004
Location: Aachen, Germany | |
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Great Idea 
If I hadn't three other games going, I'd be on board at once. Just a few comments:
| Tuna-Fish wrote on Sun, 07 November 2004 01:42 |
Weapons: Cuts out the most powerful weapon of the low-tech area, leaving a group where each weapon has it's uses, upsides and downsides. Also, makes easy starbasekilling impossible: deltas on a ship have range 4, colloidals on a base are r4 too... You are going to take casualties no matter what.
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Great choice, I like that.
| Tuna-Fish wrote on Sun, 07 November 2004 01:42 |
Propulsion: to make NRSE an interesting choice: Either you accept that you will never be able to move w10 without losses, or that all your engines are hideously expensive. Is strategical mobility worht that much?
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I'd make Prop12 perhaps, to allow the next Ramscoop Engine. Of course only if you don't think that the Overthruster is too much...
| Tuna-Fish wrote on Sun, 07 November 2004 01:42 |
Electronics: Now this one is a mouthful. 1st, I am 100% sure that it will be under 14, just to make cloaking a more viable option. But will that level 12 help SS too much? Opinions please.
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Cut it to 11, I'd say.
| Tuna-Fish wrote on Sun, 07 November 2004 01:42 |
Biotech: I long pondered making anti-matter torp fair game, just to once see people enjoying getting it. But, I think it would simply be too good.
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It's okay.
Great Idea!
Andreas / wizard
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| Re: New Game idea: selective lowtech on medium map |
Sun, 07 November 2004 06:21 |
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| Carn |
 | Officer Cadet 4th Year |
Messages: 284
Registered: May 2003 | |
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While i think the idea is worth trying(i thought myself of something similar, though i have not played normal stars enough to try modifications), i do think there are several problems with your choices:
-Everybody will have all expensive(except AR) and everybody will have BET, unless its so close/crowded, that very early wars(<20) are likely to happen.
-Everybody will have ISB, the cost to overpower a sapper/phaser Ultra filled with capcitors, is nasty.
-Also, i played a lot stars with tech 10 limit, but i never saw a good reason to use delta torps(range 4, damage 26, accuracy 60, heavy), when phasers are avaible(range 3, damage 26+capacitors,"accuracy"=0.9**firing distance, light). As torps fire just one more than beamers, will have less or equal movement due to weight and beamers move last due to less weight, i cannot see that torps offer anything but 1 extra shot, but deal less damage. Only a WM against non-WM, might find some useful topr design. I would suggest you test whether there is a cost effective counter to phaser/sapper cruiser.
-Gates? IT will have its normal 300/any gate, so can gate any way he likes, while everyone else, will have 100/250. Is that intention?
-will the IS FF horde not be too strong?
-AR will suffer from limited remote mining, since next good miner is at con 12, intended?
-I would think about allowing we 12, that could allow for more counterdesigning, as we 12 brings long range jihads and powerful shortrange weapon
-Thinks about small map, so there's something happening, before all techs are maxed
Carn
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| Re: New Game idea: selective lowtech on medium map |
Mon, 08 November 2004 07:39 |
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| Carn |
| Officer Cadet 4th Year |
Messages: 284
Registered: May 2003 | |
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| Kotk wrote on Mon, 08 November 2004 13:06 |
| icebird wrote on Mon, 08 November 2004 00:07 |
Why exactly would PP, IS and AR be turned off?
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Because of the game rules:
1) PP has warp 9 drivers and these are quite useless. So PP is teethless in that game. No point playing PP.
2) AR has no ultras and no deathstars. Where to live then? End of story for AR.
3) IS got no tachylons and its gatlings (all use mostly gatlings since there are the SD-s) are more expensive. So ... there seems to be no point in playing IS.
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Agreed on PP, but above is written:"Also, to help ar's and defence on general, you can build any starbase hull, even death star. (thus making ar the expert on defence...)"
So AR has no problem, except a reduced mining ability, but thats more than a fair deal for losing much vulnerability.
And with IS, weapons are more expensive, but the crob sharmour and fielded kelarium will be top tech and suprior to all enemy armor and shields, except MT shields. Though i do not know, if that helps with weapon costs, but a cr with only 4 we and 6 croby sharmour and 2 capacitors might be the answer or maybe croby sharmour horde.
Carn
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| Re: New Game idea: selective lowtech on medium map |
Mon, 08 November 2004 09:52 |
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| Tuna-Fish |
| Crewman 3rd Class |
Messages: 6
Registered: December 2003
Location: Finland | |
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| Carn wrote on Sun, 07 November 2004 13:21 |
-Everybody will have all expensive(except AR) and everybody will have BET, unless its so close/crowded, that very early wars(<20) are likely to happen.
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All expensive and all bet are a little contradicting choises, dont you think?
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-Everybody will have ISB, the cost to overpower a sapper/phaser Ultra filled with capcitors, is nasty.
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That was sort of the point.
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-Also, i played a lot stars with tech 10 limit, but i never saw a good reason to use delta torps(range 4, damage 26, accuracy 60, heavy), when phasers are avaible(range 3, damage 26+capacitors,"accuracy"=0.9**firing distance, light). As torps fire just one more than beamers, will have less or equal movement due to weight and beamers move last due to less weight, i cannot see that torps offer anything but 1 extra shot, but deal less damage. Only a WM against non-WM, might find some useful topr design. I would suggest you test whether there is a cost effective counter to phaser/sapper cruiser.
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Perhaps they can be used as anti-sb weapon? I dunno. Granted, they look a bit weak. As for testing, one of the points of the game is to force people non non-orthodox situations and let them adapt. Giving them the results beforehand would kinda ruin it, wouldn't it?
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-Gates? IT will have its normal 300/any gate, so can gate any way he likes, while everyone else, will have 100/250. Is that intention?
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What will they gate trought them?
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-will the IS FF horde not be too strong?
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Quite possibly. Then again, they will be in a world of pain if they try to attack an sb without allies. In my experience, stronger defence means stronger diplomacy, as long as the game has some form of set deadline.
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-AR will suffer from limited remote mining, since next good miner is at con 12, intended?
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But they have far better survivability. Also, assuming bet and const 13, RSM is only slightly better than RMM (18kt/70res=0,257 28kt/95res=0,284) Definately worth a ship slot, but not enough to cripple AR. If only midget was con-1, not 0...
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-I would think about allowing we 12, that could allow for more counterdesigning, as we 12 brings long range jihads and powerful shortrange weapon
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Not really. Jihad is a too good of a weapon in itself, there wouldn't be much point in using others in mainline use. Now, we got colloidals, bazookas (the budget option), miniguns and deltas (granted, prolly not that good)
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-Thinks about small map, so there's something happening, before all techs are maxed
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Well, on slow tech if everyone takes that all expensive there will definately be something happening before that on medium.
| wizard |
I'd make Prop12 perhaps, to allow the next Ramscoop Engine. Of course only if you don't think that the Overthruster is too much...
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OT is definately out, and I sorta like leaving the w9-optimal ramscoop out, as this ruins battlespeed for nations basing on the ramscoops. IT with cheap engines and NRSE might just be worth it for the truly superior battlespeeds.
| icebird |
Ok, more specifically the items I'd still like to see, but are above the limits: Energy Dampner, TD, Anti-Matter Generator. I think that these three parts aren't unballanced for such a low tech game.
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I hate TD to the bone...
AMG is not overpowered, but I think one could do some probhitively nasty thinds with ED and starbases with torpedoes when there are no OT's around...
| Kotk |
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So basically ... turned off prt-s are PP, AR and IS.
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Wrong. PP might not be worth it, but I never really grasped the point of playing pp in the first place. AR ought to be very powerful, it's late-game strenght cut a little by expensive miners, generally mineral-cheap ships and by that I will most definately make some vc's that will end the game before it turns into "my 16000 stack of cruisers can beat your 16000 stack, but they cant beat your stack and your starbase. What can I do?"
IS has the top of the heap in shield/armor category, and bet helps alleviate some
...
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| Re: New Game idea: selective lowtech on medium map |
Tue, 09 November 2004 04:53 |
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| Carn |
| Officer Cadet 4th Year |
Messages: 284
Registered: May 2003 | |
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| Tuna-Fish wrote on Mon, 08 November 2004 15:52 |
| Carn wrote on Sun, 07 November 2004 13:21 |
-Everybody will have all expensive(except AR) and everybody will have BET, unless its so close/crowded, that very early wars(<20) are likely to happen.
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All expensive and all bet are a little contradicting choises, dont you think?
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As far as i know its ok, to take tech you do not realy need to research further than 12 as expensive.
The tech levels that should be researched soon are at most 13,11,11,12,12,7, but to effectively be able to fight against any one else, lower tech is enough 10,10,9,9,4,4, especially if you have RS, which is ok with CR, that need to remain gateable.
So a BET race needs to research 11,11,10,10,5,5.
Thats easy to do with all expensive, even with slow tech.
As i said there will be a short early attack window for non-BET non-expensive races, but defense is stronger, so it should be possible to get through that and then shine with far better economy and cheaper stuff.
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-Gates? IT will have its normal 300/any gate, so can gate any way he likes, while everyone else, will have 100/250. Is that intention?
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What will they gate trought them?
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You are right, only armored/torpedo ships or galleons have problems with 150/600 gate, so not much issue.
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-Thinks about small map, so there's something happening, before all techs are maxed
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Well, on slow tech if everyone takes that all expensive there will definately be something happening before that on medium.
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Depends on number of players and uni size, but even with all expensive and slow, the techs will mostly be reached between 2440-2450, considering the huge econ boost all expensive gives.
Carn
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