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Re: The Beam Deflector |
Thu, 17 April 2003 20:13 |
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zoid | | Ensign | Messages: 348
Registered: December 2002 Location: Murray, KY - USA | |
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Well, I like them myself but only on a nubian hull. I currently have a nubian beamer design that I like featuring 12 deflectors, and it's a fairly surviveable ship and is VERY cheap to build. The beamer nubians that kill it cost about twice as much in resources. Resource for resource, my beamer can beat some incredible odds even though it's somewhat weak offensively (6 AMP's and 3 Phased Sappers, with 6 HE flux capacitors).
That's just my own unqualified preference - Nobody else in that game is fielding anything remotely similar, so maybe the deflector truely is unpopular.
As for how it works, I havn't been able to find any guts on it either, so I merely speculate that it works the same way as the capacitors but in reverse, and without a cap so far as I can tell (12 deflectors takes noticeably less damage than 9). I rely more on testbeds than formulas, because I'm a mathematical idiot.
I'm sure there are more qualified people who know the formulas and limitations and will doubtless dredge up some article by Jason Cawley to back everything up. Being too lazy to do it myself but curious as well, I'm waiting.
Editting: Changed "(6 AMP's and 3 Phased Sappers, with 2 flux capacitors)" to "(6 AMP's and 3 Phased Sappers, with 6 HE flux capacitors). I was referring to two STACKS of capacitors."
[Updated on: Thu, 17 April 2003 20:17]
I'M NOT AN EXPERT AND I'M OFTEN PROVEN WRONG. TAKE THAT INTO CONSIDERATION WHEN YOU READ MY POSTS.
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Re: The Beam Deflector |
Sat, 19 April 2003 12:47 |
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Guts on Deflectors (as far as I know)
0 Deflectors = 100% of damage
1 Deflector = 90% of damage
2 Deflectors = 81% of damage
3 Deflectors = 72.9% of damage
4 Deflectors = 65.61% of damage
5 Deflectors = 59.05% of damage
6 Deflectors = 53.14% of damage
7 Deflectors = 47.83% of damage
8 Deflectors = 43.05% of damage
9 Deflectors = 38.74% of damage
10 Deflectors = 34.87% of damage
11 Deflectors = 31.38% of damage
12 Deflectors = 28.24% of damage
13 Deflectors = 25.42% of damage
14 Deflectors = 22.88% of damage
15 Deflectors = 20.59% of damage
I don't know if there is a limit to the amount of deflection capable... but I figured no-one is going to slap more than 15 deflectors on a nubian!!!
On a side note... in chaffless games (I'm about to lose one... so it's too late for me to try this really...)
Why not build a nubian with...
3x engine
9x top sheild
3x syncho sapper
9x Jammer 30 (50 is you're IS)
15x Deflector
Such a ship would be really cheap...
It would ignore chaff and go straight for big ships with sheilds
It would be 95% jammed... which is nice
It would be able to take 5x more beamer hits than normal!!
It's not the best idea in the world but it might do some good.
Back onto the subject of deflectors...
Deflectors IMHO are best used with RS. If your sheilds are regenerating 10% of their maximum each round of battle and your enemy's firepower is reduced as little as 27% (using just 3 deflectors) you're increased your survivability even further!!
But just like RS... deflectors vs missile ships... don't even think about it. Armour and jammers are needed!!
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Re: The Beam Deflector |
Sat, 19 April 2003 18:00 |
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Micha | | | Messages: 2342
Registered: November 2002 Location: Belgium GMT +1 | |
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freakyboy wrote on Sat, 19 April 2003 18:47 | Guts on Deflectors (as far as I know)
<snip>
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IOW, each deflector mounted on a ship multiplies all beam damage dealt to that ship by 0.9.
(The formula I got from one of my more math orientated team mates.)
Quote: | I don't know if there is a limit to the amount of deflection capable... but I figured no-one is going to slap more than 15 deflectors on a nubian!!!
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No limit, eny caps do have a limit, IIRC 7 or 8 eny caps are the maximum that would work, adding more is useless. Since nub slots are all slots of 3 you'll see 2 slots of eny caps max.
And I used 18 deflectors on a nubian before, even one with 24 deflectors! That last one was really a tough bugger to kill and dirt cheap.
So for the record:
18 deflectors = 15.01% of full beam damage.
24 deflectors = 7.97% of full beam damage.
The 24 def nub had few weapons, 2 AMPs IIRC, 1 slot of jammers and one slot of best shields ... no jets so only movement of 2 ...
It didn't do much damage but it reduced the enemies fire power so drasticly that his ships did even less damage.
Of course such a design is not a smart idea if your enemy is (still) missile heavy, it will take your nubs too long to reach the enemy missile ships and too long too take them out because of the low fire power.
Anyway, because nub wars are mainly beam wars (with the exception of fighting an AR or another race that saved his iron supply) deflectors are the best item to use on your warfleet.
Outside the nub hull it's not that common, simply because it needs a mech slot (or general purpose of course) and you don't have those in significant numbers in the other warship hulls ...
Quote: | Deflectors IMHO are best used with RS. If your sheilds are regenerating 10% of their maximum each round of battle and your enemy's firepower is reduced as little as 27% (using just 3 deflectors) you're increased your survivability even further!!
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RS or no RS, in the nub era you use deflectors, they are not particularly better with RS, RS itself is simply better anyway!
I've seen a battle in which the two sides had about the same ship stack (roughly 600 IIRC) of nub beamers (both normal design with deflectors and shields) and no missile ships on both sides. Yet one side had RS, the end result was that their shields were generating more than the other fleet could strip off! The RS ships didn't have any losses, the other side was completely wiped out.
Quote: | But just like RS... deflectors vs missile ships... don't even think about it. Armour and jammers are needed!!
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Jammers yes, but with nubs you do not use armor! Make sure you have RS and not adding armor is only an advantage!
regards,
mch
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Dedicated sapper (Re: The Beam Deflector) |
Sat, 19 April 2003 18:34 |
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Micha | | | Messages: 2342
Registered: November 2002 Location: Belgium GMT +1 | |
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freakyboy wrote on Sat, 19 April 2003 18:47 |
On a side note... in chaffless games (I'm about to lose one... so it's too late for me to try this really...)
Why not build a nubian with...
3x engine
9x top sheild
3x syncho sapper
9x Jammer 30 (50 is you're IS)
15x Deflector
Such a ship would be really cheap...
It would ignore chaff and go straight for big ships with sheilds
It would be 95% jammed... which is nice
It would be able to take 5x more beamer hits than normal!!
It's not the best idea in the world but it might do some good.
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IOW a dedicated sapper, a ship with only one purpose, to sap the shields of the other side ... I would add and then die ...
Just like your anti-chaff ships, get in one shot (the first) and than die.
I don't think it would do much good, IMHO it won't do enough damage, you would need more ships of them, the ship is all about defense and has only 3 weapons, while it will die eventually ...
A too high cost to only sap shields, once enemy shields are down you've got an expensive piece of machinery just sitting there doing nothing ...
True, they are unattractive to beams as well as missile ships, but they will be in a smaller stack than your main line beamer ships, which means less shield coverage and I think because of that the enemy ships (beams and missiles) will shoot at them first before switching to your main line beamer fleet.
The sappers will fire on the enemy beamer stack but such a stack would (should) be pretty large and your sapper stack would be pretty small and without much fire power (focussed on defense), so they will just make a little scratch ...
Better would be of course if they fire on the missile stack which will be smaller (iron shortage) I doubt if they would get in range of the enemies missile ships since those will hang back, your sappers will have to move all across the board to get to them.
I could be wrong but I would certainly carefully test this to see if the attractiveness of the smaller sapper fleet isn't higher than the large beamer stack ... Especially since your mainline beamers maybe also have 15 deflectors? And maybe 2 shields? Than the difference is small ...
Better would be to make a sapper with no defense at all (no shields, no deflectors and no jammers) and make sure it has the first shot above anything else on the battle board and be sure that there will in fact be something in range to shoot at!
Those ships must fire before your own missile ships (of course), before the enemy beamers (not a problem, since sappers have a high weap init already) and before the enemy missile ships (if not than add jammers/shields untill you are sure your main line beamer stack will be shot at first, but again the sappers have a higher weap init than any of the missiles, so with max computers you will shoot first).
This way you'll get much more offensive ships with huge fire power that will reduce the enemies beamer stack shields significantly ...
Oh and for IS don't use 3 slots of jammer50s, 2 should be enough ...
regards,
mch
[Updated on: Sat, 19 April 2003 18:36] Report message to a moderator
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Re: The Beam Deflector |
Sun, 20 April 2003 21:40 |
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It's interesting that so many people will use jammers so easily yet ignore deflectors totally?
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Re: The Beam Deflector |
Sun, 20 April 2003 22:05 |
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Well, isn't it generally seen that Jammers are more powerful than Computers (because decreasing accuracy can be devastating) whereas Capacitors are more powerful than Deflectors (offense is more valuable than defense of a ship which is meant to rush to the front of the firing line, destroy the chaff, then have the missile ships strike?)
I don't know much but that seems to be the general feelings of people...
they made me do itReport message to a moderator
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Re: The Beam Deflector |
Sun, 20 April 2003 23:45 |
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zoid | | Ensign | Messages: 348
Registered: December 2002 Location: Murray, KY - USA | |
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freakyboy wrote on Sun, 20 April 2003 18:40 | It's interesting that so many people will use jammers so easily yet ignore deflectors totally?
| I hear people all the time saying beams are better than missiles, but it seems to me that people really FEAR those damned Armageddons like nothing else!
Okay, it's a bit of a diversion, but the quote was on topic at least and I had to say it. Capital missiles rule.
Maybe since deflectors are available so early in the game and are so useless at that point that people get used to thinking of them as useless and forget about them later when they are useful, with nubians. Then again, maybe it's only what djhakase suggested:Quote: | offense is more valuable than defense of a ship which is meant to rush to the front of the firing line, destroy the chaff, then have the missile ships strike
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I'M NOT AN EXPERT AND I'M OFTEN PROVEN WRONG. TAKE THAT INTO CONSIDERATION WHEN YOU READ MY POSTS.
Math? Ummm, sure! I do FREESTYLE math.Report message to a moderator
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Re: The Beam Deflector |
Fri, 19 November 2004 18:53 |
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overworked wrote on Fri, 18 April 2003 03:25 | Beam deflectors don't, and Nubians can quite easily carry large numbers of these cheap components to reduce beam damage to a remarkable degree. And someone (Dan Neely?) calculated that rounding errors improve the effect above even that of the formula.
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I've just spent a while searching for details on these rounding errors, but can't find anything specific. Can anyone point me at a formula for capacitors/deflectors that gives the correct results taking these rounding errors into consideration ?
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Re: The Beam Deflector |
Sat, 20 November 2004 09:40 |
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LEit | | Lt. Commander | Messages: 879
Registered: April 2003 Location: CT | |
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I'm pretty sure it was James McGuigan, but I can't find it anywhere, not even at starsfaq.com which is where I'd expect to see something by him.
IIRC he built nubians with shields, and 3 to 33 defelctors, and a beamer to hunt them down, and made a table of expected damage, and actual. If you're redoing the test, make the hunter have only one stack of beams, and no (or 10) capacitors, so other factors don't confuse things.
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Re: The Beam Deflector |
Sun, 21 November 2004 06:27 |
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LEit wrote on Sat, 20 November 2004 14:40 | I'm pretty sure it was James McGuigan, but I can't find it anywhere, not even at starsfaq.com which is where I'd expect to see something by him.
IIRC he built nubians with shields, and 3 to 33 defelctors, and a beamer to hunt them down, and made a table of expected damage, and actual. If you're redoing the test, make the hunter have only one stack of beams, and no (or 10) capacitors, so other factors don't confuse things.
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Thanks for the hint - it was just what I needed to find the table.
Search google groups for "Defs Predicted Actual testbed" and you find the following table...
Defs Predicted Actual
1 4,262 4,270
2 3,836 3,840
4 3,107 3,080
5 2,797 2,800
6 2,517 2,510
9 1,835 1,800
12 1,338 1,330
15 975 950
18 711 670
21 518 480
24 378 340
27 275 240
30 201 150
33 146 100
Unfortunately he couldn't find a pattern to the results.
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Re: The Beam Deflector |
Sun, 21 November 2004 07:01 |
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I have tried the following algorithms to see if I can reproduce James' results, but with no success...
1. damage = damage * 90 / 100, repeated n times
2. mod = mod * 90 / 100, repeated n times and then multiplied by total damage
3. mod = mod * 100 / 110, repeated n times and then multiplied by total damage
4. slotMod = 73/100 (3 caps in a slot) then as 1 but repeated x times where x is the number of slots of caps
All of this was done using exclusively integer arithmatic. Of course, this was using 32 bit integers, so it could be rounding issues caused by the use of 16 bit signed integers.
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Re: The Beam Deflector |
Sun, 21 November 2004 08:37 |
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Doh!
I should have read the entire thread that James' message was in. At the end of it all, Bill Butler comes to the rescue and explains the results in terms of integer arithmatic and rounding in armour damage.
POSSIBLE SOLUTION
using integer math
Let Y(0)=1000 and k=10
Y(n) = Y(n-1)*9/10 , X(n)=Y(n)/k
n Y X
1 900 90
2 810 81
3 729 72
4 656 65
5 590 59
6 531 53
7 477 47
8 429 42
9 386 38
10 347 34
11 312 31
12 280 28
13 252 25
14 226 22
15 203 20
16 182 18
17 163 16
18 146 14
19 131 13
20 117 11
21 105 10
22 94 9
23 84 8
24 75 7
25 67 6
26 60 6
27 54 5
28 48 4
29 43 4
30 38 3
31 34 3
32 30 3
33 27 2
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Re: The Beam Deflector |
Sun, 21 November 2004 09:06 |
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Finally, I have results that match James' table. The code is...
private int getCapResult(int base, int caps, int armour)
{
// Calculate the increments in which armour damage is applied
int damageTick = (int)Math.round(armour / 512.0);
// Calculate the damage modification from the capacitors
int mod = 1000;
for (int n = 0; n < caps; n++)
{
mod = mod * 90 / 100;
}
mod = (int)Math.floor( mod / 10 );
// Get the basic damage done after taking capacitors into account
int damage = base * mod / 100;
// Round up so that damage is applied in increments of 1/512
int damage2 = (int)(Math.ceil(1.0 * damage / damageTick) * damageTick);
System.out.println( caps + " : " + mod + "% = " + damage + " (" + damage2 + ")" );
return damage2;
}
and the results are...
1 : 90% = 4262 (4270)
2 : 81% = 3836 (3840)
3 : 72% = 3409 (3410)
4 : 65% = 3078 (3080)
5 : 59% = 2794 (2800)
6 : 53% = 2510 (2510)
7 : 47% = 2225 (2230)
8 : 42% = 1989 (1990)
9 : 38% = 1799 (1800)
10 : 34% = 1610 (1610)
11 : 31% = 1468 (1470)
12 : 28% = 1326 (1330)
13 : 25% = 1184 (1190)
14 : 22% = 1041 (1050)
15 : 20% = 947 (950)
16 : 18% = 852 (860)
17 : 16% = 757 (760)
18 : 14% = 663 (670)
19 : 13% = 615 (620)
20 : 11% = 520 (520)
21 : 10% = 473 (480)
22 : 9% = 426 (430)
23 : 8% = 378 (380)
24 : 7% = 331 (340)
25 : 6% = 284 (290)
26 : 6% = 284 (290)
27 : 5% = 236 (240)
28 : 4% = 189 (190)
29 : 4% = 189 (190)
30 : 3% = 142 (150)
31 : 3% = 142 (150)
32 : 3% = 142 (150)
33 : 2% = 94 (100)
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Re: The Beam Deflector |
Tue, 07 December 2004 07:21 |
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Zaphod | | Crewman 3rd Class | Messages: 5
Registered: June 2003 Location: South Africa | |
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I do not know about using deflectors on nubians, but you can double the armour points on a Galleon by putting 7 on, and putting 3 of your best beam in the leftover slot. Best armour and best engine finnished the enemy design
They were not attractive to the targetting algorithm (low boranium), and since they have no shields, and are good at chewing chaff, but resource for resource it's expensive, and a waste of cargo space. The design did work however and I lost all my chaff, and they distracted my beamers long enough for the enemy torps to do serious dammage. So deflectors are not dead IMHO.
If you much it up in the beginning as you learn the ropes, and make intentional mistakes. And then bust open the top-scorer's head suddenly, it comes as a big surprise to everyone. (this only works once)Report message to a moderator
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