Home » Stars! 2.6/7 » The Academy » -f explained
-f explained |
Wed, 02 July 2008 04:48 |
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beanspoon | | Chief Warrant Officer 3 | Messages: 182
Registered: June 2008 | |
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I understand that a race defined as "-f", means that they are "factoryless," but having been through the race designer a couple of times, a cannot find how to make a race factoryless - is it just that you put the resources needed to build a factory and the colonists needed to maintain it up as high as possible (getting you lots of AP) and then put up the number of resources produced by 1000 colonists as high as it will go?
Am I close?
The goat whats YOU.Report message to a moderator
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Re: -f explained |
Wed, 02 July 2008 05:25 |
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Adacore | | Chief Warrant Officer 2 | Messages: 156
Registered: February 2005 Location: Shanghai | |
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A factoryless race is, as you described, a race with the worst possible factory settings (that then doesn't build any factories in the game). So efficiency of 5, 25 cost to build and 5 max per 10,000 colonists, with no G-box (obviously).
This has a number of advantages:
- Most obviously, the points can be spent on other things in the race editor, such as better hab, LRTs, mines or cheaper tech. Not necessarily on a better resource ratio for colonists though - 1000 is generally seen as perfectly acceptable, I believe, although I've seen designs with less too.
- You have a lot more industry available in the early game, since you don't have to spend all (any) of your resources building factories. This means that while a normal race will be crippled by a major war in the first 20-30 turns, a -f race would probably find such a war favourable, as they are able to build significant fleets with no negative impact to their economy.
- As they don't rely on installations on planets for resources, just on population, a factoryless race is a lot more mobile and can absorb losses and 'let them hit air' far more easily than a race with factories.
- Factoryless races tend to have very distributed production, which makes it hard for the enemy to knock out key production centres, as there aren't really any (similar to the above).
The disadvantages, of course, are that once you hit the mid-game then races with factories become a lot more powerful economically. While a factoryless race will be lucky to get much more than 600 or 700 resources from a planet, a race with factories will be able to produce thousands. This is particularly important for the production of capital ships - factoryless races cannot put together an expensive battleship in one turn at any of their planets, and the distributed production makes it hard to assemble the slow trickle of capital ships produced across the empire into a single, powerful fleet.
[Updated on: Wed, 02 July 2008 05:27] Report message to a moderator
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Re: -f explained |
Wed, 02 July 2008 06:38 |
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Soobie | | Officer Cadet 3rd Year | Messages: 270
Registered: May 2007 Location: Australia | |
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There are quite a lot of posts on -f tactics by some very good players, both here and in the newsgroup. It's worth having a hunt around the forum and skimming.
Regarding late(r) game for -f: I remember playing against a good -f player in mid-late game. He'd spent a lot of time early disrupting supply lines of the players he wasn't actively attacking. This tended to slow down their growth and meant that it delayed the coming of the 'usual' mid-late game problems for him. Also, he was expanding into other turf so fast that even as the factoried races should have been catching up, the fact was they weren't.
He also had a knack for being able to predict who was going to hit him next and where vs. which planets he was willing to give up without a fight. So I would send in a fleet and score a planet, only to discover I got it completely wrong as to where my ships should be, and he was gallivanting around with quite a few smaller fleet annhilating one of my (or someone elses) expensive and time consuming to build planets. (ie: he picked his battles carefully.)
[Updated on: Wed, 02 July 2008 06:38] Report message to a moderator
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Re: -f explained |
Wed, 02 July 2008 06:55 |
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Adacore | | Chief Warrant Officer 2 | Messages: 156
Registered: February 2005 Location: Shanghai | |
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It's not specifically touted as a '-f strategy' article, but if you've not read it already, you should check out Jason Cawley's Operational Stars by Example article, a revised version of which was included in the official strategy guide - http://www.anrokima.de/Strategie_Handbuch/ssg/ssg12.htm
It's a good example-driven explanation of why and how -f races can compete in the mid-late game.
[Updated on: Wed, 02 July 2008 06:57] Report message to a moderator
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Re: -f explained |
Wed, 02 July 2008 08:05 |
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beanspoon | | Chief Warrant Officer 3 | Messages: 182
Registered: June 2008 | |
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There's an Official Strategy Guide? (With captial letters?)
W00t! Don't worry, I've found it!
[Updated on: Wed, 02 July 2008 08:09]
The goat whats YOU.Report message to a moderator
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Re: -f explained |
Thu, 03 July 2008 20:34 |
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mlaub | | Lieutenant | Messages: 744
Registered: November 2003 Location: MN, USA | |
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Adacore wrote on Wed, 02 July 2008 05:55 | It's not specifically touted as a '-f strategy' article, but if you've not read it already, you should check out Jason Cawley's Operational Stars by Example article, a revised version of which was included in the official strategy guide - http://www.anrokima.de/Strategie_Handbuch/ssg/ssg12.htm
It's a good example-driven explanation of why and how -f races can compete in the mid-late game.
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The guide itself is fine. However, neither does it, or anything said here really clearly define the true power of a -f. I think that any new player interested in creating and running a -f for the first time really needs to understand *how* they can be most effective. I hardly ever see that part discussed. I apologize if I missed someone else's explanation and this is just duplication, or this is truly so obvious to everyone, that no one stated it.
Losing the factories gives you:
1. A very wide hab
2. A very high growth (19% is fine, and I have used 18% with an IS)
3. Allows 3.5 cheap techs easily, if you want them.
You still need one other thing to make this a runaway train.
Required Secret ingredient - Ultra Aggression
This is the combo that makes the -f so powerful in the right hands. The fact that from the start you can have a 1 in 2 hab, or a 1 in 4 with an immunity (arguable the best choice), along with a 19% growth. With aggressive expansion, your population should far out strip your neighbors, by simply having more and better breeder planets. The other stuff talked about is the nuts and bolts of war, but the true power is the early explosive growth, and the effect that has on your targets....errr, I mean neighbors!
Not only will you have more pop in the early years, but you should have the best tech, too. This means that for the first part of the game, your colonies are near untouchable. Or, if someone does manage to destroy your much better tech spacedock, and popdrop you, it has hurt him *far more* than it has hurt you. In fact, as a -f, I like seeing my neighbors build fleets of destroyers and cruisers...
So, essentially, the -f controls space and planets by explosive expansion that is very difficult to counter early with a +f race. This should stunt the growth of your neighbors, or at least some. Further, by stunting the growth of its neighbors (by virture of taking part of *their* share of the planets!), or forcing them to fight early, they effectively create a power and tech difference, which creates its own immediate opportunities (I like to *effectively* take out my fist victim in the 2420's). Picking off the nearest, weakest, most "profitable" neighbors, creates the domino effect from hell. By the time we get to all these strategies that Cawley talks about, the game should be very one sided, in favor of the -f. If for no other reason, minerals would be key here.
Remember, you have given up factories for better tech, growth, but mainly hab. However, you did not give much up in mines. Now that you are hitting the mid to late game, you hopefully have 2x the planets of your nearest competitor. This means you have *way* more minerals. It's time to hang out the sign to all your neighbors. It reads "The End is Near!".
The only game where I played a -f and had difficulty in the late game, was a Huge/Packed (many issues with a -f in a huge). In that large of universe it is actually difficult to *effectively* eliminate everyone before Y2500. However, there was no doubt about the outcome of the game. How do you fight an opponent that doesn't care about planetary losses, and his mineral supply is still growing after 25 turns of endgame ship building? An AR, maybe, if there are any left, but that race is a primary target.
As a disclaimer, I will point out that anyone who is very good, plays a specific designed HG, can truly screw with a -f enough to set it off its game, possibly even beat it, if the HG got a lucky hab draw. As you can run an HG in full -f mode if needed. And, of course, running into another -f truly sucks.
-
...
Global Warming - A climatic change eagerly awaited by most Minnesotans.
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Re: -f explained |
Fri, 04 July 2008 14:53 |
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mlaub | | Lieutenant | Messages: 744
Registered: November 2003 Location: MN, USA | |
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joseph wrote on Fri, 04 July 2008 02:59 | Matt - you missed explicitly stating that you should have ISB (yes I know some -f dont have it but it is the killer LRT for -f)
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I mentioned spacedocks in one sentence, so it was on my mind
It is nice, but like you say, not 100% necessary. I would make this more dependant on universe size/Race more than anything else. Medium or smaller is almost a given to use ISB.
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Also speaking as someone who has lost a number of games with -f your biggest enemies are complacency, distance and diplomacy.
Complacency - you are placing 1st or 2nd you spend a few turns to many getting nice to have tech and sufficent minelayers and ...forget to be attacking someone.
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Yep, if you tend to complacency, you should play a different style race. I assume that any -f I run into does not want any game long friends, shouldn't receive any of my tech, and will attack me as soon as there is an opening. Any quarter shown to a -f will come back to bite you 9 times out of 10.
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Distance - the further away your neighbours are the harder it is to damage their growth and take their planet share.
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Well, your expansion and tech just needs to ramp up that much faster. One of my earliest colonies in the huge was over 300ly from my HW to a near perfect breeder on the edge of another players "space". Imagine his surprise when I started moving into "his" territory! Did I stunt his growth? yep.
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Diplomacy - everyone you make a NAP with limits your boarders of expansion (note ally with players the other side of your neighbours and crush them between you). I once managed due to stupid diplomacy to surround myself with allies (would have been great if I was a HP).
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Exactly.
-Matt
Global Warming - A climatic change eagerly awaited by most Minnesotans.
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Re: -f explained |
Thu, 29 January 2009 15:30 |
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Sully | | Crewman 1st Class | Messages: 39
Registered: January 2004 | |
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I agree with All of the aforementioned Insight.
I've only tried -f 3 times & win twice.
Both times that I came out on top was when I was attacking as soon as I had a target. The one
time I lost was when I got land locked by NAP's & Allies.
The -f strategy seems to be as straight forward as that.
[Updated on: Thu, 29 January 2009 15:30] Report message to a moderator
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Re: -f explained |
Thu, 29 January 2009 16:42 |
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joseph | | Lt. Junior Grade | Messages: 440
Registered: May 2003 Location: Bristol | |
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Yes the play style of a -f has been memorably compared to acting like a "Rabid Weasel"
Joseph
"Can burn the land and boil the sea. You cant take the Stars from me"Report message to a moderator
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